Why am I a snail murderer?

[Fishy]

A few weeks ago, I got my first nano reef animals - 6 hermit crabs and 7 snails of 3 species. The hermits survived and did well. All the snails died instantly despite an hour of drip acclimation. The store said it was because the salinity was too low (1.023, now it's 1.0245). I also brought the pH up to 8.2 and good alkalinity too since then. I thought it was safe to try again.

Yesterday, I bought my first (and only) fish (two Oscellaris clown fish, one is the black kind), my first four corals (at least one has opened while the others were thinking about it when I left for work), and 7 more snails of 4 species. I floated the bags for 40 minutes and drip acclimated for two hours in to four separate buckets (based on where the animals were in the store on the same systems or not)! Then, I put the animals in. When the went in, only the two Nassarius snails were obviously alive (not shut up tight). As of this morning, the snails are still shut up; I think they're dead again. The only thing I can think of is that during the drip acclimation, since I was dripping from a bucket removed from the tank (for safety and logistical reasons), that when I put the animals in to the tank, the temperature was a few degrees warmer than what they had been in. The store guy thinks the snails die of temperature shock. Is a few degrees going to KO them instantly? I can't drip acclimate from the main tank (it's too small, too high up, etc.). Could my water chemistry be instantly toxic to snails but not kill the other animals?

Should I give up on snails? Can the tank exist without them? The algae are growing pretty well; the crabs can't eat any on the glass but eat some on the live rock.

I'm so sad that I'm a snaily murdered, 14 times over! I've never had this problem with freshwater snails. Those, I don't acclimate (temperature or water temperature) at all!

 

[KidNano]

I'm not sure why the snails aren't making it. I don't acclimate snails and crabs except floating to bring temps within range. Never had a problem.

sorry.

 

[SaltWaterNewb]

Same here. Acclimate for temp and dump them in making sure they are all upright. Not lost a snail yet.

 

[Ritsuko N]

I got to agree with the rest of the pack here. Admittedly I do the same with my new snail additions. Unless your water parameters were seriously out of wack the drip acclimatation should have eleminated any concern for shock to them temerature and water params wise.

 

[Fishy]

I would think if the water were "bad" then the hermit crabs, fish, and corals would also have died right away. Everything I'm testing for is okay except the phosphate. I got my RO unit today. I put in phosphate removing beads yesterday, and it went from 2.5 ppm to 1 ppm today. Once I get the phosphate iron stuff and do more water changes, the phosphate should go down. Would 1 ppm phosphate kill snails instantly? I don't think so.

When I got home, my two new fish were fine and hungry. My green mushroom coral was open all day. My other three (green zooathids, a LPS polyp, and star polyps) never fully opened but started to. Should I worry or do they take a few days to open? I picked up and looked at the snails. The trap doors are starting to come off of a few of them; I'm afraid they're definitely all goners, all seven! If the water I was drip acclimating fell say 5 degrees from the tank temperature, would that be enough to kill them?

I certainly don't go through this much trouble with my freshwater animals. I'll just pick them out and dump them, never losing any of them. As long as temperature changes are slight and from colder to warmer, I've never had problems before.

At least I can have a fish and crab tank if not snails (and not sure about the corals yet).

If I try again (worried to do so), maybe I'll forgo the drip acclimation and just float if temperature is the main problem.

Nobody yet answered my question. Can I have a reef tank without snails that is functional (not an algae garden)? Thanks.

Ritsuko, I ain't having fun! So, I'm not doing it right!

 

[TimSchmidt]

You don't NEED them, but they do help quite a bit. You can get an algae scraper for the glass and there are hermit crabs and fish like lawnmower blennys that will keep the rock and substrate fairly clean. Try again from a different vendor if you can and just temp adjust them. If you haven't already I would take the dead snails out before they foul the water.

 

[reefman23]

You acclimated WAY too long. Were these specimens shipped to you? Just FYI, if you ever get corals shipped to you, NEVER drip them. It is much better for the corals if you float them to match temp ant dump them right in. The amount of crap that builds up in the bag when things are shipped is crazy and dripping that make the situation much more stressful for the pieces than just dropping them in.

In general though, if you just pick up a specimen from a LFS, you want to float it for 10 minutes or so, and while it is floating, test the SG of the water in the bag. If it is off by more than a few points, say it is 1.021 and your tank is 1.026, just add a cup of your water to the bag, give it 5 minutes or so, and add another cup. After 15 minutes, drop that bad boy in.

I have gotten to the point where I just float for 5 minutes and ker-plunk! In in goes.

Some people LIKE EDGRAY!!! dont even float! He... I mean some people... just put the piece right in. And I *guess* his tank is doing okay. :roll: ;-)

I have to say though that I do inspect every coral piece very closely with a flashlight and a scalpel before I put it into the tank. I look for nudibranchs, flatworms, eggs, anything that should be there. You should quarantine, but who honestly has a separate QT tank??

Jesse

 

[Fishy]

I read that drip acclimation was the key to keeping corals alive. I dripped acclimated an hour with the first round of hermit crabs and snails which came in the mail. The crabs did fine; the snails all died. This last batch of animals was from a "local" (one hour away) store (Mr. Coral except for the regular clown who came from another store). I dripped two hours because I thought the first snails died from shock (too fast a change). With freshwater, I just float and put in. I guess I can try that with my future saltwater animals.

So far, only one coral has opened. The other three have peeked out (so I assume they're alive; they come out a little and go back in.). How long before they come out or are they in trouble? I was told zooanthids were the easiest but they're waded closed, kind of rolled up at the edges. Only the green mushroom (one that looks like anemone) is fully open, and it's got some skin/mucosy stuff come off a few places now (nothing major).

I haven't removed the snails for two reasons. One, most are tightly closed so there's a remote chance (like hitting the mega millions) that one or more might be alive. At least one has started to open (guts coming out). The second reason I left them in was for the hermit crabs who ate the last dead snails and then wore their shells around.

The fish seem to want to always swim in the current areas although there are slow areas where they could go. My mother was worried the current was too strong for them (160 gph in a 12 (8) gallon nano). Crusty the clown was swimming a little sideways in the current too. Should I worry? These guys are more eager for food than my freshwater fish!

I did see a few animal remnants among the coral pieces. One looked like a freshwater hydra with a bulb on the end. Could it be a dead apistia (sp?) anemone or something? I don't think it's alive (floats loose). The other was just this white fleshy thing, small, not seemingly alive.

I can barely keep this tank alive so a quarantine isn't likely. My tank is now fully stocked as far as fish and crabs go. I just need a few more corals and geez I don't know if I should get more snails. I don't want more to die. The only close stores only have turbo snails (too big) so it's a hassle to get more snails (shipping is ridiculous and the "local" stores aren't so local).

I got my RO system last night. No directions! It's a good thing I'm a chemist, or I wouldn't have a clue. The sink adapter doesn't fit, of course, so I have to stop at the hardware store to find something. My sink has a hose thread; the RO has a sink adapter (that doesn't fit any of the 6 faucets in the house or 2 bathtubs).

I guess that's about it for now. You guys make it all look so easy but this reef stuff is super hard for me (a Masters degreed ana*ytical chemist with 15+ years freshwater fish experience)! I had to replace the l with an * or the SPAM checker thinks I'm disgusting!

 

[KidNano]

I think (and my experience is limited) from everything I've heard that drip acclimation is most critical with the fishies. I've seen a lot of tanks where people just throw their coral and inverts right in, but I can't reacall hearing that many people do that with thier fishies. Could be wrong though.

when ever I have had things die right after putting them in the tank it's typically because they just weren't healthy to begin with. You have to be picky about what and where you buy from and know what signs to look for in sick creatures. Not that I know what they are, but I'm trying to learn. I now find my self going to the stores just picking out which fish and coral look healthy and which look sickly so I can be more familiar. Not easy to do with snails though.

I'd say give snails another chance. I love them. some people don't. just buy them from someone else. :cool1:

one more thing. try to not be such a chemist while learning about these things. I design custom homes for a living and the most difficult clients we have are the ones in the business. the ones that know what it takes to build a home. Try not to over think your tank. in the near future your profession will be a great asset for you in this hobby, but now it might be hindering your enjoyment a little. just a thought. :langle

 

[TimSchmidt]

Relax But I would remove the snails. If they are dead the ammonia may cause a problem. You can get empty shells real cheap (or just let the snails rot in another bowl of water...) Lemon juice syringed at the aptasia will make sure it's dead. And I may (just to be sure) just do a full battery of tests (that you already own) just to check the parameters. But I'm weird and do biweekly tests and write them down until I'm comfortable with the stability of my tank.

 

[Fishy]

I'm making my first batch of RO water right now. They sent zero instructions! The canister says to discard the first 4 gallons but doesn't say 4 gallons total or just RO or whatever. I'm letting it run an hour and then collecting. Anyway, if phosphate, silica, or copper are a factor, with water changes, those should lessen. I have to go out tomorrow and don't have time to test the water but I'm pretty sure the only thing (with the test kits I have) that's off is the phosphate. I put in fresh carbon and phosphate beads today and will do the water change tomorrow. I think at that time, if the snails are still dead, I will remove them with the changed out water and let them sit. Who knows, they may come back to life (not)!

Now, I'm worried about the only coral that opened so far, the green mushroom (anemone looking type). It has these fluorescent green dangling things that open when the light's on and fold in a bit at night. In the middle is this round part. It was brownish. Now, today, it's like spitting up this dark stuff that looks like mud. Does that mean it's dying now too? The LPS coral now has this stuff around the base that's like fuzz or something coming off. Its polyp is sticking out a tiny bit but never opened all the way. The zooanthids have never opened (so much for being super hardy). The star polyps peeked out yesterday but nothing today. Am I also a coral murderer too?
:sad:

 

[KidNano]

post pictures of them.... how long have you had them?

 

[Fishy]

I don't have time tonight to process my digital photos of the new animals.

I have good and bad news. The good news: one of the snails (a Cerith snail) came back to life! When I got up before the lights were on, I saw something hanging out of one of the shells so I shone a light on it, and it retracted! I turned it over (it was too weak to do so). Over about four hours, it drove about two inches. Then, I had to go out for 5 hours. When I came back, it was upside down again and seemed dead. I righted it, and it later had moved a little. I doubt it will survive but it was a surprise. One of the Nassarius snails now has its dead body out, and the crab was eating it.

As for the corals, there's also good and bad news. The star polyps fully opened! Yay! But, the mushroom put out more black gunk in the middle and one of the two has sort of flopped down and is sagging like it's going to fall off the rock. The other two corals (zooathids and LPS) have never fully opened yet, just peeked out.

I did a 2.5 gallon water change this morning (about 30%). This was the first change with water started from new RO water. Here are the test results for the water in the tank (before the change) and the make up water. I used dry/wet chemical tests unless it's noted it was a dipstick test:
Temperature: 77 degrees F for both (I got the genius idea to put a heater in the bucket with the stirring saltwater)
Salinity - 1.023 and 1.024 by both hydrometer and refractometer
pH - unsure (see below) and 8.2 (maybe, see below)
Alkalinity - 150 ppm (but 300 ppm by dip stick?) and 150 ppm
Nitrite - 0 by dipstick
Nitrate - 0 by dipstick
Calcium - 345 and 360 (despite using a mix that claims 450 ppm when used with RO water)
Phosphate - 0.5 (yay, down from 2.5 after two rounds of white phosphate remover) and 0 (yay, none in the make up water).

Ok, so the pH is really confusing me. I really can't match the colors well enough to tell for sure what the pH's are. I may have to buy a pH meter (more money and time but I definitely know how to use one). Via the add dry chemical test, the pH of the tank is between 8.4 and 8.6 while that of the make up was 8.2. By dip stick, all I can say is that the tank was above 8.4 and the make up was near 7.8. I don't know what they really are! Anyway, the last time I tested the tank (a week ago), the pH was near 8.2. How did it go up to 8.4 to perhaps even 9.0 without anything new? Could the white phosphate removing beads have increased the pH? I think biological processes normally lower the pH, right? Yikes, if the pH is really nearly 9.0, then I'm surprised anybody is alive! The water change will help, and I'll keep doing them (SO time consuming though). I've been putting in a pinch of buffer but it may be overbuffering above the ideal pH of 8.2.

I don't know if I'm overthinking this. All I know is I've killed a ton of snails and maybe some corals which makes me feel awful. The fish seem to be doing fine but never seem to rest, always swimming in the high current areas. I'm worried about that too.

 

[Fishy]

I got up photos of the corals. Let me know if you think they're dead or dying. I think only the star polyps are okay.

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/marine/corals.htm

Also, last night, I saw a bristleworm on the glass who swam to the live rock. Should I be worried or are most bristleworms just scavengers? He was maybe 1.5 inches long and very skinny but with the bristles (short skinny ones). I guess he came with the corals. My resurrected snail has not moved since yesterday so I think he died again.

If it weren't for the crabs and fish who need me, I would give up even though I've invested like $700 in to this tank now! That's a ton of money for someone on my salary.

 

[TimSchmidt]

Well I'm not a coral expert but I think your fluctuating water parameters are the source of problems. The RO/DI is light on instructions but they mean to discard the first 4 gallons of usable water. After that it's all wonderful. Honestly i would just keep up with weekly water changes (nothing to drastic, something like 10-20%) and I wouldn't add anything new. Snail or otherwise. It will take time, but everything will work out. You have quality water and after a bit of time the tank will find its equilibrium. Most times if we mess with one parameter it affects another one or two. I prefer to avoid additives and only do water changes (but I have fish only with live rock). Most bristle worms are scavengers. Not sure but I would guess the dipstick is giving inaccurate data.

 

[Ritsuko N]

Im on boardwith everything Tim posted above as well as reefmans words of wisdom as there is a lot of truth to it.

Looking at your photos...

The green hairy muchrooms look as though they are gaping thier mouths and look kinda droopy. If thats the case thats generally not a good sign. If they start desoling or form a brownish gray jelly like considtencey then you have Brown Jelly problem going and I would remove the effected polyps and residue and maybe dip them in a coral or iodine dip briefly as per the directions.

The Starburst Polyps look okay and healthy. If they are not opening up something aint right with the lighting or water quality.

Same thing looking at the Zoanthids

Did you say dip strips were your testing kit? If so go get a second opinion from someone who has a test kit with glass test tubes and have them test you water. Dip Strips are notorious for erronious test results that are off target. If this is the kind of test ket your using then that could be why you have a problem and cant identify the source of the problem.

Do be advised that the time you do a PH test can have a profound effect on the ph. For example if you test the PH as soon as the lights come on in the morning your going to get a low PH reading becuase the high CO2 will drop the ph during the night time. Conversely if your always testing just before the photo period on your tank ends your going to get a higher PH reading becuase of the lower CO2 level in the tank. Try to test you water at the same general time like a couple of hours before the photo period ends and you shut the lights off for night time. This will take out a lot of variables nd keep you test results more consistent from day to day week to week. Your ph should not be going above 8.4 if it does you need to start looking for the reason why. At night its not that unusual for Ph to drop to 7.8-7.6. if it goes below this you may have issues. Looking at the results and not having any other amplifiying info you have some wildley fluctuations in ph and some of them if acccurate are way too high ie...close to 9.0!!! You need to consider too that ALK, calcium and Ph are often related and if your having issues with one your likely haveing issues with all three to one degree or another. The Calicum level you posted in on the low side of things. Chemistry of the water can be a bit of a bear to reign in on a new tank which is why its often recommended to not add anything other than CUC until things have settled down and evened out a bit. This is far more an issue with corals than it is fish.

What kinda light do you have on this tank, type and wattage and Kelvin Rating of the bulb in use?

 

[Fishy]

Well, one of the mushrooms definitely died, fell all apart with the green parts separating from the stuff that looks like shed frog skin. I think maybe they were too close to the light. I asked at the store about that; he said they were used to strong light. The other mushroom had drooped down. After I moved the rock with mushrooms to the floor, the drooping one seems to have improved. The LPS coral is now "pooping" up stuff (throws of death I guess). The star polyps seem to be doing great. The zooanthids won't unfurl their little bristles around the edges but are partially open. Could they be getting too much light? I found a tiny feather duster worm on the zooathid rock! He's cute.

I looked up the brown jelly disease. I don't think it was that. I was actual parts of the coral creating the disintegration of the mushroom and LPS coral. The mushrooms "pooped" out this brown gunk from their "mouths." I don't think there was time for a disease to occur.

I have this test kit:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=14740
Instant Ocean OceanMaster test kit. It's made with dry test ingredients.
I also have dip sticks, the 6 in 1 kind:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... catid=4494
I use those because they're fast but I still use the first test kit too.
I also have some older pH test kits from my freshwater tanks I tried too. Each test gives a different result (something I'm used to having trouble with with the freshwater tanks). So, I think I really need the pH meter. I don't know that the pH is fluctuating, its just that each test kit gives a different answer. Part of that is that's hard for me to tell apart subtle differences in color.

I'm aware of the pH fluctuations in freshwater planted tanks and ponds. The saltwater tank is starting to grow some algae so I guess there should now be a daily swing in there too. I tend to test around the same time each week.

I'm starting to get a nice crop of hair algae and a few spots of slimy algae. I think when I do a partial water change tomorrow, I will try to rip some off and send it down the vacuum. I need some living snails!

I definitely don't have too much calcium since I tested for that. I will reduce the amount of buffer I'm using though. I don't have an ana*tical balance here at home, just one that measure 1 g or higher so I can't measure a pinch accurately.

What's "CUC?"

I have two 24 W compact fluorescent lights. It's the 12 gallon nano cube deluxe:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=10677

I understand the benefits of waiting to add more animals from the beginning. The thing is that I could have waited a year before adding my first snails and crabs but those first snails still would have died because I wouldn't have know all the things I know now (must use RO water even with nearly distilled well water, must up the salinity above what the salt mixes say, must add buffer, must temperature acclimate more importantly than water chemistry, and so on). If I had waited longer, I still would have killed my first corals. I asked Mr. Coral about the LPS, "Isn't that harder to keep alive, shouldn't I wait to try one?" "Oh, no; they're easy" came the response. My brother (who never cared before the tank) really wanted that one. I never got to see it open once.

Anyway, I'm doing 30% twice weekly water changes with RO starting water to try to clear out anything bad. Then, after about 3 weeks, I will try snails just one more time and see how the corals are doing at that point (might get a few more).

Well, I had one moment of fun, when I found that little feather duster worm. I guess he's pretty hardy! I guess he'll find enough food in the water? Also, one of my scarlet reef crabs molted and this one didn't die like the zebra who molted. Good sign? I need one!

 

[Ritsuko N]

I think maybe they were too close to the light. I asked at the store about that; he said they were used to strong light.[quote]

Im not sure that was such a big issue as I have kept them under 14K halides before after acclimatation.  But they had plenty of light so I think you can rule that out if your using saltwater specific bulbs.  I currently have some simular 'shrooms under about 40 watts of T-5's and they are doing rather well, so surely 48 watts of PC should be just fine.


[quote]The zooanthids won't unfurl their little bristles around the edges but are partially open. Could they be getting too much light?[/quote]

I doubt this is an issue too, at least too much anyways.  Again I have some that are under a 250 watt 14K Halide thats 4 inches above a 20 gallon tank and they are multiplying!  Thats a bit over kill lighting intensity wise, Ill admit but they can take some pretty intense light.  But if its positioned where its getting a direct hit from the light, 48 watts should be enough.  Something else has to be at work here.

[quote]What's "CUC?" [/quote][/quote]

Im sorry I should have been more specific and not assumed that everyone would recognize that abriviation.  [b]C[/b]lean [b]U[/b]p [b]C[/b]rew...all your snails, hermits, crabs, seahares, shrimp and other algae eaters and scavengers that you use in the tank to keep it clean invert wise.

Yes sometimes eye balling the colors on the test sample of water against the card that comes with it can be challenging at times.  I would suggest going to some place thats well lit by something other than your tank lights and hold the water sample or dip stick against the card with the color codes and match it as closely as you can.  That works best for me.  But then again there are a whole range of electronic gadgets that you can get to test your water, I just havent found them personally myself to be neccessary although they would be nice.

 

[TimSchmidt]

actually great sign on the crab!!

 

[Fishy]

Well, I took some water to work this morning to test the pH with a real (expensive and calibrated) pH meter. It took a long time to stabilize but ended up at 7.92! Yet, the at home tests were saying high 8's and even close to 9! It goes to show you how off the test kits really are (or my ability to read them). If in fact the tank is pH swinging due to the algae, what do I do about that? I can't keep snails alive to eat the algae. I've been adding Red Sea salt mix (2/3) made for RO water (which I'm now using) and 1/3 Reef Crystals (have to use that up) plus a pinch of buffer mix. The Red Sea stuff says if you only add that to RO water, the pH, alkalinity, and calcium come out perfectly. And yet, my tests aren't showing that! Should I just use 100% Red Sea mix (letting the other salt mixes (I also have Instant Ocean) rot)? Am I putting in the wrong amount of buffer? Since I'm not sure what the true pH is, I'm really confused. I'm ordering a pH meter for home today. Then, I can test the pH at various times of the day in real time.

The mushrooms completely fell apart. I washed one down the drain, the other floated away. The LPS is now all fuzzy and falling apart too. The good news is that the zooanthids and star polyps seem fine as do the crabs. That little feather duster worm gave me some hope too.

Today, I have another concern. Until now, the two clown fish have been doing great although restless. Now, today, the smaller black and white Ocellaris clown has two little white things hanging under his chin. If he were freshwater, I might suspect anchor worm (which is what it looks like but smaller). I know treating the tank with antibiotics and/or parasitic medications is not possible (without killing everything else off). Should I do something? Am I just being paranoid? He seems to struggle more than the larger regular clown. The regular clown also will chase him a little. I was told that if you got two little ones at the same time with a size difference that they would work things out with the larger one becoming female. I think there's a rule. The most expensive fish must die first! :sad: