Tank Size

[Aquai]

Ok, so i know this is a nanotank forum, but i've been thinking about potentionally making a larger tank towards the end of the year providing i can save enough...

And i was just wondering what people think is a decent size tank for two pairs of clowns and a mandarin maybe...

I've got a space of about 3ft by a 1ft base to work with and was wondering what is the best kind of setup to go for, i was thinking reef but i'm abit concerned about having to setup a sump etc on a larger tank... (I know i can get the tank, stand and hood for about £200 at my LFS but it's this drilling process that scares me...) From what i've seen browsing around the site most of the setups consist of a sump under the display tank which is normally linked via plumbing and most of the setup is hidden in here. These plumbing jobs though look like hard work and expensive? Also the other thing is that i don't understand how the flow is stopped to the sump in a powercut if its just using gravity to go down and a pump to go up (or have i missed something blindingly obvious?)

I spose the question i'm trying to ask is is a sump system necessary for a 30 or so gallon tank and if so i would like some advice on what's going to be required for it so i can get a reasonable idea of how much a setup would cost...

So far the main things i've figured i will need are...
About 100W of lighting (Really as a minimum)
A large heater
A pump (either for in the tank or the sump)
A protein skimmer (so this will cut down on weekly water changes?)
Mechanical filtration (Bioballs + Sponges?)

Basically at the moment this is all ideas and i sussed that seeing as you guys are all so friendly and have the best experience, this is the best place to ask questions...

 

[skipm]

IMO you need a minimum of a 55 gallon thats been set up for 6 months (better yet a year) for a mandarin.
The space you have available to you is the same as a standard 30 gallon tank, you could also go with a 45 high but lighting would be more difficult due to the increased depth.
If you take a look at a hang on overflow you will see that it has a box that goes in the main tank that has weirs (slots or teeth) cut in it so the water can flow into it, when the water level drops below the weirs no more water enters the overflow thus stopping the water from going to the sump. Its alot easier to see than it is to explain. You mainly need enough extra space in your sump to hold the water that will come until the level drops below the weirs.
You don't necessarily have to have a sump on a 30 but it is a convenient place to hide your heaters, carbon, protein skimmer, etc. without loosing any more tankspace other than the overflow box. Having a sump also increases your total water volume which helps keep your parameters more stable.
You don't want to use bio-balls unless this is going to be a fish only tank, sponges or other mechanical filtration are fine as long as they are cleaned or changed at least weekly.

 

[Aquai]

Yuh i intended on getting a tank big enough for a mandarin to live healthily in but as i understand the main concern is food source, and as far as im aware the mandarins my LFS can get take frozen brine alot as well...

I think i understand what you're saying, a HOB, so would that mean i wouldn't need to do any frightening drilling - Please say yes - And i presume the return on the sump would be a pump going into some plumbing which i could then have going in to one side of the tank or maybe all around the surface or something? I also think my LFS has a HOB protein skimmer which i maybe able to use in a similar way?

Yuh i figured that it's around 30 gallons, just over. So would a suitable sump size be about 5 to 10 gallons i spose.

 

[TimSchmidt]

Yeah no drilling with the HOB overflow. And the return could be done using flexible tubing (Make sure it is rated to handle the output of the pump you choose, not sure where you are at but your local hardware store can help you with that) and some 90 degree pieces to make a HOB return so you won't have to drill anything. To prevent to much water from being sucked back into your sump in case of a power outage make a small hole in your return plumbing that rests under your water level, I'd say about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch below. This will let air into the plumbing and stop the suction. Test the setup outside to tweak how much water flows back into your sump. Um as far as size goes on a sump I really would do anything smaller than 10 gallons, mainly because you will have to leave enough empty space in the sump to make room for the water in your plumbing in case of a power outage.

Everything I've read about mandarins tells me to avoid trying to supplement their diet as they can be happy only with enough pods to support them.

HTH.

Tim

 

[skipm]

You pretty much have the plumbing thing down in your mind it sounds like. The only thing to make sure when buying a hang on overflow is that it is rated to handle at least as much flow as your return pump, this usually isn't a big problem in the smaller tanks we keep but more so in larger systems with a large return pump. Since you have 3 feet to deal with for the tank I am guessing you have the same for a sump so I would recommend going with a 20 long which is 30 inches long and 12"x12" h and w. This will give you alot more room for equipment and room for a decent sized refugium if you decide you want one. All you would have to do is silicone in a couple of baffles.
You say that the mandarins your LFS gets will eat frozen brine, the main problem I see here other than its not even close to natural is that brine is just about as nutritional as popcorn so they would still end up wasting away due to lack of nutrition. These guys have to have a big enough tank so it can grow enough pods to allow them to forage for their food continuously just like they would in the wild. It is a shame that these guys are so hard to set up for because they are quite beautiful fish but IMO if you cannot provide them with the minimum tank to meet their needs they are best off left in the store (not trying to be rude just stating my feeliings).
BTW where are you located? I seem to remember you mentioning the UK at some point.

 

[Aquai]

I'm in NW London UK so some of the equipment some of you US guys can get is alot harder/more epensive over here...

The sump will most likely be in a cabinet underneath the unit so yeh the same working space. A refugium is an area of organic filtration right? (Algae/Clans etc...) The other thing that concerns me is the size of the protein skimmer, all skimmers i've seen are reasonably/very large in size here in the UK, is there any make i should look out for for a project like this?

Ok so at the moment it's looking like the mandarin is out of the question, what if i got like a rediculous amount of live rock?

 

[TimSchmidt]

If you had a large refugium that produced obscene amounts of pods you might be able to get a mandarin, but I would vote against it regardless of refuge size.

Tim

 

[skipm]

A refugium is an area of filtration through the growth of macroalgaes which use unwanted nutrients (nitrates mainly) for their growth. It is/can also be an area where things like worms and pods can grow without predation from fish.
You may want to see if Aqua C Remora skimmers are available or CPR BakPak skimmers. Both are hang on skimmers. I wish I could help more but I am not familiar with what is available to you.

 

[Aquai]

Well i went to the LFS today and he's got a 3' by 1' by 1.5' tank plus stand for £150 on special, thing is it's his last one. So i was wondering whether you all thought this was a good price or not (probably about $250 USD).

I then started inquiring about sump etc. and he said that a sump on that size tank really isn't going to be necessary and he can get me a nice Red Sea Prism (i think it was) skimmer that would be about £100 for the tank.

I then started checking up on other prices/equipment and sussed i would need:
A mechanical filter - £40 or so
A heater - £40 or so
Another light to go on top of my 2 24Ws - £50+
A hood - £60

Which is a total of about £450, which'll be more like 500 with sand and rock etc...

Reckon that's a reasonable price or think it's alot? I'm not sure you see...

 

[TimSchmidt]

A 35 gallon tank and stand for $250.00? Hmm I wouldn't pay that, but then again I usually buy used tanks from yard sales and such. I just saw a 35 gallon for 70.00 USD not long ago, sounds kinda wrong to me, but I may just be in a cheaper cost of living...

Tim

 

[Aquai]

The tank is like £50 - about $70 i think, and the stand (reinforced wood, proper aquarium stand) is normally £160-$200ish but i'm getting the pack for £150 - I think it's $250, someone may proove me wrong though...

 

[TimSchmidt]

Well if you like the construction of the stand then go for it. I'm a bit of DIYer so I build my own stands (1"x3" interiors with 1/4" or 1/2" plywood exteriors with molding to dress them up).

Tim

 

[skipm]

Its really pretty hard for us to determine what a good price is over there because we have no idea what the normal prices are. If you think its a good price then I say go for it. You may also be able to skip the mechanical filter unless you planned on it also providing you water circulation.

 

[Aquai]

Hmm, what are your normal prices over there for a specific stand for a fish tank, (about 3ft long)? If you have any idea that is?

Yuh i planned on having the mechanical filter at one end of the tank for movement and a pump at the other...

Are those stands you build Tim sturdy enough for a 35 Gallon? Just seems like the wood is abit thin...