Natural Mud filter Method

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KidNano

New Member
I've been a little curious about Fiji Mud and Miracle Mud lately so I've decided to research it a little bit. really, so far it's only been a "little" bit. I read an article about total natural filtration and wanted to share it and get some feed back from the people I trust so much with my tanks health.

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/g ... s_pg1.html

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/n ... l2001.html This is probably the better description of the theory.

One of my LFS' (Window to the Sea) only builds systems using this principal and garrantees every fish put into one he builds. Jesse doesn't like this guys opinions and I typically don't either, so I'm curious to see if anyone here currently runs a system like this. check out the articles above and I guess this one too.

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/miracle.html


from my understanding the three major differences are.
1. no skimming or other mechanical filtration. skimming removes phytoplankton which is critical to the circle of life in the aquarium
2. no adding elements because everthing is naturally being added through the mud.- Lately what I've been hearing is don't put anything into the refugium besides the macro. This mud sounds good though.
3. and 24 hour fuge lighting.

Anyone have additional facts proving or disproving this method of filtration to be all it's cracked up to be?

Thanks
 
T

Trogdor

New Member
I don't think that there is a single good way to setup a tank. There will always be pro's and con's of any method. The best that you can do is try to digest the material and come up with your own conclusion. Most articles are biased on one method and rarely show multiple tanks side-by-side to do a comparison. I'm sure that the mud method works, and so does the deep sand bed along with a bare bottom tank. The biggest con that I have with it is the cost of the product. It averages about $10/lb and that's a huge investment.
 
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reefman23

New Member
I have an interesting lab test of "Miracle" Mud.. sorry, "Miracle Mud", but I cant link it because nanotank.com has the word "a.n.a.l.y.s.i.s" blocked because of stupid spammers!! So I'll PM it to you. *EDIT* I cant PM you the link either! So here is the bulk of the info...

"As can be seen, there is a large amount of Aluminum (~70,000 ppm), Calcium (~40,000 ppm), Iron (~40,000 ppm), Magnesium (~20,000 ppm), Silicon (~300,000 ppm), and Sodium (~10,000 ppm).
To quote Inland Reef:
"The *TESTING* indicates that Miracle Mud is 30% silicon. This mostly likely exists in Miracle Mud as silicon dioxide, which is found in nature as quartz. As pointed out by Randy Holmes-Farley [a contributing author to Advanced Aquarist ], the molecular weight of silicon makes up less than half the molecular weight of silicon dioxide. So if the silicon present is all in the form of silicon dioxide, Miracle Mud is more than 63% quartz."
What is also suprising is that there is almost 40,000 ppm iron (almost 4%) in the samples. What is the need for iron in a marine substrate???
In addition to having the substrate *TESTED* via GDMS, photomicrographs of the substrate were taken using a Nikon microscope at 40x using a Fuji 1.5 megapixel camera. Visual evaluation of the photomicrographs seems to support the supposition that the product could be heavily laden with quartz crystals."

I did read that second link you posted. It is interesting, but I am still very skeptical. One reason being is that it is from the company's website.

While I see no harm being done from this product, I really see no need for it. The best advantage it seems to have is that it introduces benefical bacteria and microlife... all of which can be done my a good quality LR and LS. It does seem to house worms and stiff, but so does the SB in my display tank. I see TONS of things growing in my sand.

Also, it claims that it is "carefully formulated to include all the essential trace elements, minerals, and components necessary to maintain a successful aquarium." My thing is that is great and all, but it cant do that forever. It will become exhausted sooner or later. Plus, you can do that with frequent water changes!!

Also, being that you have only a 20L sump, there isnt really much room for something like a DSB or mud layer to be all that effective IMO. How much space do they suggest you have for this stuff?

Lastly, that stuff is CRAZY EXPENSIVE!!

I dont know if any of that was any help. :neutral:

Jesse
 
K

KidNano

New Member
Sorry but I don't know much about quartz crystals or anything about chemistry really so I don't quite understand what you posted Jesse. I apologize for my ignorance.

here is a side by side comparison that you asked about.
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/g ... s_pg6.html
yes it's on the company website but it pretty much proves Trogdors point. To each his own. at least from what I saw.

The reason this guy came up with it is because he considers himself a lazy reef keeper. The maintenance is literally just water changes. No filter media to deal with and some how with that breakdown you gave above the only thing he adds is KW and he supports everything in his tank that JohnandDawn do. (maybe anyway.)

so $80 for a ten pound bag in a 20 gallon sump(which I saw is good up to an 80 gallon tank), no skimmer, no adding trace elements..... It sounds like an easier way to enjoy this hobby. If it works even if people don't understand what's in it, I don't get why it's not bigger then it is. why wouldn't everyone want an easier cheaper way to enjoy their home reef.

"What is so special about the Miracle Mud???
Miracle Mud is 80% oceanic mud, harvested in a certain region at a certain depth, 20% trade secret when processed we blend minerals and trace elements that is time released into the water column. Therefore it is not nessasary to add any chemicals or additives to balance the water chemistry."

OH yeah and the one thing that I like about not running a skimmer is that it removes phytoplankton which almost the entire reef relies on, right? all the other little bug guys need those phytos right? as well as coral and clams?

I get your skepticism, but have you ever heard of a tank like this just not working well. All of Window to the Sea's tanks are set up in this manner. Other then him not spending enough time taking care of them they look pretty good jesse. I don't see any of his corals dying off like Coral Oasis are because they aren't feeding them.

Does that make sense to anyone? I'm not trying to start an arguement over which way is better. I'm looking for more of a brainstorm. Maybe Nanotank.com will create a whole new way of doing things if we all put our heads together to come up with the lowest cost lowest maintenance best looking reefs in the world. :lol:
 
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johnanddawn

New Member
sorry just me thinking out loud:
i've run tanks BB, SSB, DSB, with and without sump, with and without skimmers, with filtration and without any, with and without carbon, with most forms of lighting, from 10 gal - 125 gal, and they all worked and had pros and cons................
i'm a science teacher and i love to experiment. i have found most "truths" in this hobby are annecdotal at best and someone is always trying to sell you something you may or may not need. 3 things are neccessary: flow, light, water Q - how you achieve that is very personal decision.
i've not had a chance to test the ecosystem method out personally but have looked at it from the outside with interest for some time now. maybe one day i will set up a tank and give it a try.
if you want to try it out go ahead - your experience will just lead to the advancement of the hobby - but if your looking for the ultimate method there just isn't one.
- as jesse said no methodology can replace basic care, maintenence, and simple water changes regardless of the type of system
 
T

The Kapenta Kid

New Member
May I think out aloud too? :mrgreen:
I think that there are many things that may work, but people don't know how and why they work. So they may concoct some plausible 'scientific' reason which is easily unpicked when subjected to scrutiny. But that does not necessarily mean the thing doesn't work. Only that the explanation why is false.
This is not an endorsement of the claims of miracle mud or anything else, just a general observation.
 
K

KidNano

New Member
that is a very good point. we're trying to recreate something created by something much bigger then we're able to comprehend. That's why the idea of Miracle mud is so significant. it's as close to nature as currently possible (from my understanding) and we know that because it's succesful with out any mechanical filtration or additives. It allows the circle of life to complete itself with in the contained reef system. yes you can get bits and pieces here and there that aren't affected by mechanical filtration, but it's because of routine additives. some compare it to a DSB but you still have to add elements to a DSB. The miracle mud takes that whole aspect and cost out. with the exception of KW ofcourse. I think if it's true and it does everthing it says it does then it is in fact "miracle" mud. I've seen a tank with this system with all kinds of corals and livestock that's been up and running for 2 years and the guys only maintenance is water changes. is that not amazing?

I've already got my skimmer and mechanical set up so I'll have to give it a whirl on my next tank. no need to let all that money go to waist.

Thanks for talking and any other philosophical or scientific comments are more then welcome. :mrgreen:
 
R

reefman23

New Member
johnanddawn said:
sorry just me thinking out loud:
i've run tanks BB, SSB, DSB, with and without sump, with and without skimmers, with filtration and without any, with and without carbon, with most forms of lighting, from 10 gal - 125 gal, and they all worked and had pros and cons................
i'm a science teacher and i love to experiment. i have found most "truths" in this hobby are annecdotal at best and someone is always trying to sell you something you may or may not need. 3 things are neccessary: flow, light, water Q - how you achieve that is very personal decision.
i've not had a chance to test the ecosystem method out personally but have looked at it from the outside with interest for some time now. maybe one day i will set up a tank and give it a try.
if you want to try it out go ahead - your experience will just lead to the advancement of the hobby - but if your looking for the ultimate method there just isn't one.
- as jesse said no methodology can replace basic care, maintenence, and simple water changes regardless of the type of system
Click to expand...

Kid nano... this is all i was really trying to say... I just couldnt say it as eloquently! LIke I said before too, I dont think this system can hurt anything, I am just skeptical of the claims being made. That said, i wouldnt stop you from trying at all. Obviously people have success with this project, but again I would be slow to credit all of that to this one product.

Honestly, I have been to Window to the Sea a few times, only one time did I really look at the tanks, and I was more distracted by the enormous amount of aiptasia and various other things in the tank that were driving me crazy. I actually dont remember seeing too much in the way of corals that time I went. I did like the multiple macroalgae tanks that were tied into the systems as well.

Let us kow what you ultimately decide.. I think this could be quite interesting. BTW, you may be able to find much more information from people with hands-on experience with these forms of filtration over at reefcentral.com. I remember seeing a few threads over there covering this topic but I never read much of them.

Jesse
 
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