First Nano Effort...

[JeffDubya]

Yeah... the closest thing to a "local" fish store that I have is in Lewiston, ID. I am in Pullman, WA. (About 40 minutes) they recently purchased a bunch of these lights.

Man I really want those nano cubes to be the solution... but sadly, it sounds like they just aren't.

Well, I am going to have to find a stand first, cause I am going to need something to set the tank on. BLAST!

See, what I want to EVENTUALLY have is something like this: http://www.all-glass.com/products/featu ... icmission/

That's why I want to start small first... get my feet "wet" again (no pun intended) and then dive in bigtime. Oh God, sorry, did it again. I think I would be making a serious error to go right into the larger tanks. Aw, hell - I dunno.

By the way, remember... I am only on this once or twice a day! :langle

 

[reefman23]

there is no problem with starting with a larger setup...actually there is more room for error in a larger tank. the only problem you will run into is cost...obviously it it more expensive the larger you go.

 

[JeffDubya]

Well, that and I may get into this and discover that it's really quite a PITA for my current lifestyle. Small steps, ellie... small steps.

 

[skipm]

If you have any DIY experience then a Nanocube could still work. There are a couple of mods that need to be done IMO and they are upgrading the lights, the return pump and adding a surface skimmer. The lights can be bought in kit form from www.nanocustoms.com , I would use either their 3.24 or 4.24 upgrade which would take you up to 3 or 4 24 watt PCs respectively. The return pump is an easy mod, pull out the old pump and drop in the new. Adding a surface skimmer is also mainly a buy and drop in part. I wouldn't rule out a nanocube just yet if thats what you were interested in, its just alot of people say why buy the tank and then have to make so many changes when you can buy a plain tank and build it the way you want to the first time. HTH, Skip

PS If you ever get out to the other side of the state one of the best fish stores I have ever heard of is supposed to be in Mount Vernon if I remember correctly. There are also a couple that I have read about in Seattle that were pretty good.

 

[reefman23]

Yeh i agree with skip. nanocubes are definetly a viable option, i was siomply giving my opinion. and yes, i would agree with skip again that those are the basic necessary upgrades that should be done.

 

[JeffDubya]

I thought the new model came with a surface skimmer?

The promotional literature clearly shows "surface skimmer" is this something different?

http://www.jbjlighting.com/sys_24g_nanocube.html

 

[JeffDubya]

another question. (3) 24 watt PCs is the same as the stock tank (2) 36 watt lamps. No? Yes? Or I am assuming PC is different than CF? or is it PC/CF? What about T5 or VHO? I know, I'm blabbering again...

and 290 GPH is not enough exchange for a 24 gallon tank? Assuming 6 gallons worth of space is taken up by rock (likely more), Thats the entire volume of water over 16 times in an hour. Must be my noob showing (blast!) but that seems like a lot to me.

 

[skipm]

My mistake Jeff, the lighting specs I gave are for the 12 gallon nanocube and the need for the surface skimmer was with the 2005 models. I forgot that the new models have a surface skimmer. The lights for the 24 are the 32 watt PCs that you saw and not the 24 watters I posted about. I have a 12 gallon DX model that I am about to do a lighting upgrade on so I guess my mind kinda gets stuck there sometimes. You can upgrade the 24 with the 3.36 upgrade which will give you 3 36 watt PCs, here is a link to the upgrade kit: http://www.nanocustoms.com/catalog/prod ... cts_id=116 . If you browse around on the site you should be able to find instructions on installing the mod, this will help you decide if it is something you can do yourself. If you have any questions about the kit contact Chris at nanocustoms, he is a great guy to work with. I also forgot that the new cubes have a better return pump so you may also get by without having to change it out. But if you decided to change the pump out for whatever reason later it is a simple and fairly inexpensive changeout. As long as you get the newest model all you really will need to do is upgrade the lighting then. HTH, Skip

 

[JeffDubya]

OK then Skip... you mentioned that 290 GPH is "getting by" as far as water exchange. So, what I would like to know is, what is optimal? Is there a calculation or calculator out there I can use to determine the optimum number?

Another question qoing back to RO/DI Water. Now, I am assuming that this is what I would buy if I bought a big jug at Culligan, like for a water cooler. Of course, I don't want to be storing big bottles of water, nor do I want to be spending that money. At one point, you said:

An RO/DI filter is one of the best investments that you can make to insure that you are using the best possible quality of water that you can.

Soooooooo... how much are we talking here? And where does one purchase such a critter? Is this a huge appliance, like a water softener? Or something like a "PUR" fliter that I can just attatch to my faucet head?

Let's go back to lighting. It still seems that this upgrade basically adds more CF/PC lights. Are these HO or VHO bulbs? And again, what about T5? That seems to be the big buzzword in aquarium lighting right now.

Now, lets also talk about filtration. What I read on another board was that with the Nano cubes, you should remove the ceramic media and the bio-ball media it comes with and use "live rock rubble" in it's place. I guess this is where my inexperience truly shines through. WHY? If I do that, the only thing "filtering" water will be, um, rock. I don't understand how that works.

Last question for this particular post. With that much light, and readin other posts, do I need a chiller?

I really, REALLY appreciate everyone's posts. I am really getting a great education here. Regardless if I do a nano or something else, I really feel like with all of your help, I have a good education going into this and will likely be much more successful.

 

[incysor]

From RC's faq pages.

"Can I use tap or well water in my tank?"

You can, and people do, but you may be asking for trouble down the road. Water is corrosive and in traveling through the pipes to your house it may pick up iron and copper from the plumbing. Many water suppliers add phosphates to make the water less corrosive. This can create nuisance algae and inhibit coral growth. Well water is often free of phosphates but may contain high levels of nitrates. Natural metal levels in the water accumulate as evaporation and the resulting water top-off increase the concentration. Any reef enthusiast is well served by purchasing an RO/DI unit to improve water quality here is a link to questions on that subject- http://reefcentral.com/modules.php?s=&n ... page&pid=2

"Can I use a tap water purifier to supply water for my tank?"

If you have a nano tank it may be OK. The big problem with tap filter is the limited capacity of the filter and the subsequent cost to replace it. A tap water filter will only produce 50-100 gallons of water before it is exhausted. An RO/DI can produce 2000-3000 gallons before you need to replace the DI cartridge. A tap water filter replacement is around $20 while the DI canister is around $25. That means you pay about 40 times as much per gallon for tap water filtered water compared to RO/DI. At that rate it doesn’t take long to justify the extra cost of the RO/DI system.

 

[skipm]

I guess I made a bad choice of words, the new return pump should be fine but if you desire more flow then you could upgrade it later. You usually want around 10x the tanks volume for turnover for SPS corals. This number can be a little harder to acheive in some of the nanos but it is a kind of target range. With this formula in place you would want to shoot for about 240 gph for a 24 gallon nanocube, of course you can also deduct some from the size because the 24 gallons is the total volume including the sump area. With that in mind the upgraded pump they are now using has more than adequate flow. Some people have an enormous amount of flow (20 plus times per hour or higher), that was the only reason I pointed out that it could still be upgraded at your descretion.

On the RO/DI unit, you may be able to get RO water from the fish store or Culligan as you mentioned but if you end up with a large system you will end up getting very tired of carrying jugs of water (especially if stairs are involved). It is very convenient to have your own filtration unit so that you can either filter a batch of water as needed or if you have it permanently installed you have several gallons available whenever you need it. The most important part of a RO filter is the membrane, as far as I know there are only 2 companies that manufacture RO membranes so for the most part all RO filters are pretty much the same when comparing like models. Different gallon membranes have different rejection rates. The rejection rate is the amount of "stuff" removed from the water. As an example a membrane with a 95% rejection rate will remove up to 95% of the contaminants in the water. There are quite a few sellers on Ebay that sell RO/DI units at pretty resonable prices,here is one example:http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUARIUM-2-110GPD-RO-2DI-REVERSE-OSMOSIS-water-system_W0QQitemZ7733280355QQcategoryZ20756QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem . This is by no means the only one available, I just grabbed this one as an example. It also has some very good pics to give you an idea how it works. Water comes in and goes through micron filters to remove sediment, carbon filters to remove chlorine, the RO membrane to remove the majority of the contaminants, followed by the DI cartridge(s) to remove as much of the remaining contaminants as possible. Some companies also like to add a final carbon filter but it isn't really necessary. If money is really tight you could start with a bare bones model like this and add the DI on later: http://www.aquatichouse.com/WaterPurifi ... 2stage.asp . For small amounts of water you can get by with just a DI filter but with water like you described yours as it wouldn't be cost effective due to very short DI cartridge life, here is an example of one of these type filters: http://www.aquatichouse.com/WaterPurifi ... filter.asp .
If you look at the attatchments that are available you will see that the filters can be either mounted permanently or you can use the garden hose adapter or faucet adapter and keep them portable.

Back to lighting, CF and PC are the same lights and are considered HO lights. VHOs are very similar to regular fluorescent bulb but they are designed to be lit with a special ballast that makes them give off alot more light. Just as an example a standard 4 foot bulb is rated at 40 watts, a 4 foot VHO bulb is rated at 110 watts. T-5s are the relatively new kid on the block, they are gaining popularity in some areas but it is my understanding that in order to get the best light out of them you need individual reflectors for each bulb plus the smallest T-5 that is a HO that I know of is a 2 foot bulb so it has limitations on where it can be used. There are other T-5 bulbs but they are not HO. I don't have any experience with T-5s so thats about all I can say about them.

The reason for using LR rubble instead of another media is in the way it processes ammonia. Most bio-media is designed to be very aerobic (alot of oxygen) so it converts ammonia to nitates pretty quickly, with LR and rubble you also have the same aerobic filtration taking place but you also have some anaerobic (no oxygen) bacterias that convert the nitrates to free nitrogen. This helps keep the amount of nitrates down in the tank. LR as a general rule is porous and that provides for alot of surface area for bacteria to grow on (the same as bio-medias), this is how you can get away without having other filters on a saltwater tank. The LR provides enough surface area for the bacteria to colonize and take care of the ammonia produced. This is another reason why you have to be careful about not overstocking a saltwater aquarium.

The need for a chiller is usually not a problem for most of us. There are things that can be done to prevent the need including elevating lights, use of fans, avoiding larger pumps or an excessive number of pumps, etc.

I hope I haven't confused you even more. Skip

 

[JeffDubya]

Nope all of the information is great, Skip. You should write a book. Reef Tanks for dummies, I see it in your future.

I talked to Chris today. He's really hot on a product by "Finnex" http://nanotuners.nanocustoms.com/nanot ... cts_id=155 which comes in both 20 and 36 gallon models. http://nanotuners.nanocustoms.com/nanot ... cts_id=153 Since a lot of folks have been pushing me to get something bigger, this is kinda cool! The only drawbacks is the tank is acrylic, not glass (scratches much more easily) and the top is much more "exposed" than I prefer. Additionally, the finnex product does not have moon lights. Sounds like they are upgrading their lights in the next 3-6 months, and a nicer furniture-grade stand is coming soon.

While I understand patience is a critical part of reefkeeping, patience to GET STARTED is something I am a bit short on at the moment...

 

[JeffDubya]

Of course the finnex rely on a protien skimmer, which I have ZERO experience with and I hear can be a bit cranky.

 

[incysor]

OK then Skip... you mentioned that 290 GPH is "getting by" as far as water exchange. So, what I would like to know is, what is optimal? Is there a calculation or calculator out there I can use to determine the optimum number?

The reason that 290gph is just getting by in the cubes is that there is one pump that's acting as return, and current. Generally you want your return pump to be able to cycle your entire tanks water volume at least 10x an hour. So with a 24g tank, a 290gph pump is sufficient for this purpose. However you also want a certain amount of random current, and if you're trying to use your return for that as well, then it may be a bit under-powered.

Another question qoing back to RO/DI Water. Now, I am assuming that this is what I would buy if I bought a big jug at Culligan, like for a water cooler. Of course, I don't want to be storing big bottles of water, nor do I want to be spending that money.

RO, or RO/DI water is pretty much a necessity for marine tanks, and reef tanks in particular. Culligan water is usually just spring water, and is not pure enough.

Soooooooo... how much are we talking here? And where does one purchase such a critter? Is this a huge appliance, like a water softener? Or something like a "PUR" fliter that I can just attatch to my faucet head?

http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/showp ... 67&Sub=166

It can attach them under your sink. I'm not particularly handy when it comes to plumbing, but I've been able to install/uninstall/reinstall mine with basic tools and very little head-scratching. There is a product you can get from most major pet stores that will give you RO filtered water by attaching it to your faucet. But the filter is only good for about 30-50g of water. It's a lot less cost effective than an RO/DI unit.
For most nano tanks an RO/DI unit really isn't necessary though because you can go to the LFS and buy RO/DI water, and pre-mixed salt water for about 50cents a gallon for RO/Di, and a buck a gallon for the salt. Hauling 5-10g jugs of water for a large system is a pain. But when you're talking nanos 20g of water will last you a month easy, so it isn't as big a deal.

Let's go back to lighting. It still seems that this upgrade basically adds more CF/PC lights. Are these HO or VHO bulbs? And again, what about T5? That seems to be the big buzzword in aquarium lighting right now.

There isn't enough space in any of the cubes for VHO, or T5 bulbs. They simply don't make those types of bulbs in a lenght that will fit. So yes all lighting upgrades on them will be PC. Some folks have tried 70w MH upgrades, but I haven't heard of anyone DIYing one for a cube that didn't have heat issues. I know they sell them on nanocustoms, so buying one of their upgrades might be an option for you.

Now, lets also talk about filtration. What I read on another board was that with the Nano cubes, you should remove the ceramic media and the bio-ball media it comes with and use "live rock rubble" in it's place. I guess this is where my inexperience truly shines through. WHY? If I do that, the only thing "filtering" water will be, um, rock. I don't understand how that works.

Liverock is porous. It provides lots of surface area for aerobic bacteria towards the surface, and deep within it lot of surface are for anaerobic bacteria. These type two types of bacteria are whats responsible for your nitrogen cycle.

Last question for this particular post. With that much light, and readin other posts, do I need a chiller?

It depends on how you choose to upgrade. I believe that all the upgrades on nanocustoms are designed to work without needing a chiller.
But powerheads, pumps, lighting all contribute heat, so it's possible.

A lot of your questions have been answered many times. Try using the search function. Unlike RC's, the one here always works. You might be able to answer a lot of your questions without having to spend the time writing a long post. We do a good job here of not flaming people for not searching first, but on a lot of the other boards, a thread like this, with lots of beginner questions would generate lots of rude comments. Believe me I've gotten flamed on RC, and on nanoreefs a few times. :lol3:

B

 

[skipm]

Incysor,
Thanks for the input about the Culligan water, I thought it was RO but I guess I made a false assumption. Thank you for correcting my mistake. Skip

 

[JeffDubya]

A lot of your questions have been answered many times. Try using the search function. Unlike RC's, the one here always works. You might be able to answer a lot of your questions without having to spend the time writing a long post. We do a good job here of not flaming people for not searching first, but on a lot of the other boards, a thread like this, with lots of beginner questions would generate lots of rude comments. Believe me I've gotten flamed on RC, and on nanoreefs a few times.

Sorry... I don't even know what RC is.

However, I can assure you that this is only one of the sources of information I am using to educate myself, and I am doing a fair amount of reading before posting, as much as time will allow.

However, when framed within the context of a contiguous conversation, it makes all the details easier to understand and such conversation is definitely worthwhile. If not, Skip might still be working under his misconception regarding Culligan water.

I guess reading the same posts by noobs can sometimes get old. I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to offend you by posting "basic" questions.

If it was all about reading, there would be no use for interactive mediums like this forum, and we'd all be reading books.

 

[djconn]

RC is www.reefcentral.com. Check it out one day. Its an informative place that charges you to use their seach engine. That pretty much sucks. :cry:

 

[JeffDubya]

Wow, just looked at the site. With that much traffic, I'd charge too. Personally, I prefer smaller sites like this one.

 

[incysor]

I guess reading the same posts by noobs can sometimes get old. I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to offend you by posting "basic" questions.

If you look at the number of detailed responses I've given on the site, you'll realize I'm not offended by noobs asking questions. Even questions that have been answered many, many times. I'm just pointing out that the search function, because you don't seem to be aware of it.

Like I said, on this board people are usually very cool with any questions, but on some of the other boards you'd get some very rude responses. I've seen more than one person run off of RC, or nanoreefs because they got flamed badly for asking dozens of questions that would have been answered in the faqs, or by trying a search.

B

 

[incysor]

Wow, just looked at the site. With that much traffic, I'd charge too. Personally, I prefer smaller sites like this one.

This site tends to be much friendlier...But sometimes when you're having an emergency, a lower-traffic site may not get you answers as quickly as you need them. Or you may come up with questions about things that hasn't been seen by a site with a smaller amount of members. RC being the biggest, means they have the most knowledge. It's only been in the last six months or so that the search function has become nearly inoperable. I have still been able to use it late in the evenings, but that's about the only time I haven't gotten the 'high server load' message.

B