Cycling tank with live rock-Help!

[reefer73]

Hello again,
Do I need to do frequent water changes while the tank is cycling? The LR from the LFS is "pre-cured" and I have read so much conflicting information in the past couple hours I don't know what's what anymore. I know doing water changes during cycling will just prolong the cycle but I read that if I don't the rock will die. I am very confused and any help is appreciated.
-Mike

 

[proraptor]

Even if the rock is pre-cured you will still most likely have a cycle and (unless the sand and water you used was from an established reef) your rock will have some die off.

Dont do water changes during your cycle.....Wait for your algae blooms

 

[TimSchmidt]

Wait on the water changes.

 

[islandcreation]

reefer73,

I myself just set up a 66 with live rocks and sands from an established tank. Yeah, changing the LS creates a new cycle but I'm waiting for atleat two weeks before I add any corals or fish. I'll add a cleanup crew but thats about it for now. Rather be safe than sorry. Plus I learnt that this hobby is all about eing patient and absorbing knowledge after knowledge etc... ha,ha,ha

 

[JeffDubya]

Get some biological matter in the tank to get that cycle going. I had a lot of different advice, just like you.

(You have to learn how to filter responses on internet forums... what I do is count the number of responses - the one that comes back most frequently is the one I go with, though it is worth considering that THEY MAY ALL BE CORRECT. Then once I make those decisions I try to stick to the advice of those I originally followed, since I am now using their strategy. Just remember there's a reason why we post in the beginners area and ALWAYS keep an open mind.)

In my case, I had a fish die I could not locate, and I dropped in a chopped up, raw shrimp from the seafood counter at the grocery store. Mmmmmmm... tasty.

I am also carefully monitoring my water chemistry - even graphing out all the categories in excel. That way I can graphically see where I've been.

But first, you need some ammonia to get the cycle rolling. The natural way to achieve that would be some form of decomposition.

 

[JeffDubya]

Oh and my strategy is to not do any changes until my water stabilizes, FWIW.

 

[proraptor]

Get some biological matter in the tank to get that cycle going. I had a lot of different advice, just like you.

(You have to learn how to filter responses on internet forums... what I do is count the number of responses - the one that comes back most frequently is the one I go with, though it is worth considering that THEY MAY ALL BE CORRECT. Then once I make those decisions I try to stick to the advice of those I originally followed, since I am now using their strategy. Just remember there's a reason why we post in the beginners area and ALWAYS keep an open mind.)

In my case, I had a fish die I could not locate, and I dropped in a chopped up, raw shrimp from the seafood counter at the grocery store. Mmmmmmm... tasty.

I am also carefully monitoring my water chemistry - even graphing out all the categories in excel. That way I can graphically see where I've been.

But first, you need some ammonia to get the cycle rolling. The natural way to achieve that would be some form of decomposition.

The live rock will die off creating ammonia....You dont need to add anything to start a cycle

 

[skipm]

That is usually but not always the case, it depends on the LR that you have. Some "LR" is sometimes cured to the point that it is basically dead. It doesn't hurt anything to add a little more ammonia (whether direct or indirect as in the addition of something to break down), the worst thing it could do would be to cause the tank to initially develope more bacteria than needed. These extra bacteria will just die off. Any closed system will only support as many bacteria as needed to process the waste that system creates and the rest will die-off.

 

[JeffDubya]

The LR from the LFS is "pre-cured"

If it's already cured LR, you need at least *some* biological matter to break down...

 

[proraptor]

That is usually but not always the case, it depends on the LR that you have. Some "LR" is sometimes cured to the point that it is basically dead. It doesn't hurt anything to add a little more ammonia (whether direct or indirect as in the addition of something to break down), the worst thing it could do would be to cause the tank to initially develope more bacteria than needed. These extra bacteria will just die off. Any closed system will only support as many bacteria as needed to process the waste that system creates and the rest will die-off.

The only way you will not experience die off is if you use established tank water and established tank sand that hasnt been sturred right before use and is established again. Not to mention if the rock you buy leave the water for even a second you will have some die off (some sponges will instantly die when they leave water). Adding ammonia might not hurt the tank but could make your cycle period longer and Im sure no one wants that....

 

[skipm]

Actually most cured LR won't even have sponges because they will have died off already. With some LR the only thing you might have to die off is the bacteria. Granted this is some pretty poor LR but that is all that is available in some parts of the country.

 

[proraptor]

My rock had a ton of sponges on it of course most of them are gone cause they died when I exposed them to the air but some are starting to come back...

 

[Anonymous]

fresh/ cured/ cooked?? there are many grades and levels inbetween and origin/ type is equally important.
extremes for example
1) - some of the cultured live rock from florida comes in with corals, sponges, algae, tunicates and who knows what else on it - all alive and kicking!
2) - many people today "cook" their live rock which is a form of curing that actually tries to kill off everything in/on the rock except the bacteria
3) -however your average LPS will sell rock as "cured" that they bought a box of that was sent in from figi (a couple days of moist packed flight) - they throw it in a tank for a couple weeks and call it cured....... hmmmm.. OK??
i never add oganic matter to a tank to get it cycling - the rock itself will provide more then enough to get your bacteria going.

 

[skipm]

It appears that this is going to be one of the areas where we all have different views on what is right. The biggest thing IMO is to note that all of us are entitled to our opinions on thios and we are all correct at least to some extent. It alsol seems that adding more organics to break down or another method of producing ammonia does nothing detrimental to the tank, with the slight possibility of adding a little time to the cycle. IMO this is one area where we all will have to agree to disagree and allow each of us our own view on the matter. I have cycled using a hearty fish in the distant past and I have let the LR cycle itself and I have added a pinch of flake to the tank. In each of these tanks I ended up at the same place, a cycled tank. It appears to me that there is more than one way to achieve the goal of having a cycled tank. Just for the record though I do draw the line at urinating in the tank.

 

[Anonymous]

i agree skipm
- my point was that your starting point determines the path you should follow far more then some "cookbook" recipe that says this is the proper way to cycle a tank........
patience and a slow build up of bioload however i believe is a universal

 

[TimSchmidt]

Dang, no peeing in the tank? Come on...haven't you ever thought of doing it Skipm, or were you scared to hit the ballast with the stream? (This is a bad attempt at humor, roll with it :???: ) Appears there is no "wrong" way to cycle a tank listed here...go figure.

 

[skipm]

Thats pretty much the point I was trying make with alot more words. All methods are right, its just a matter of preference.

BTW, I haven't thought about peeing in my tank. This could have alot to do with the fact that I like my tanks pretty high to make them easier to see in but for whatever reason I have stuck to other cycling methods.

 

[reefer73]

I can see that this topic has a wide variety of solutions. I appreciate the help but am still a little confused. By organic matter do you mean fish or corals? I'm sorry for sounding like I don't have a clue but this is a giant leap from freshwater and I'm trying to take is slow and do it right, ya know? I'm kind of limited by the size of my tank (3 gal.). I think I am going to take proraptor and skipm's advice and wait on putting anything else in the tank until I can get a few more test results and see where my levels are... Wow, I just answered my own question, Huh? Ha, Ha, Ha.
-Mike

 

[JeffDubya]

NO CORALS. They will die.

Some people like to cycle with hardy fish, like damsels. Personally, it didn't work for me. If it does work, they the drawback is you have fish you may not desire over the long term.

You cannot generally cycle with invertebrates, because your water may become toxic to them as your tank cycles. shrimp and snails apparently do not like the nitrite/nitrate bump. However, I gotta tell you that my LFS gave me some red legged hermit crabs, and they seemed to have weathered it just fine.

Whether you just put in the live rock, or drop in a chopped up shrimp to get things going, test your water every 2-3 days. Graph the results. You will see your ammonia spike and the nitrites follow. When the ammonia and nitrites go back to zero and stay there, you are ready for a water change to bring down your nitrate levels and then it's time to rock and roll!

That's where I am... and I am so psyched! Now if my damn RO/DI filter could just get here sooner so I could get this show on the road...

This is a previous post by Skip you may find helpful...

A cycle and waste go hand in hand.

Adding a fish or a cocktail shrimp is one way of adding waste to the tank, this waste is then broken down by 2 different bacterias (nitrosomas and nitrobacters). The first converts toxic ammonia into nitrites and the second converts the less toxic nitrites into nitrates. When referring to LR being fully cured it is kind of the same thing, when LR is harvested it is going to have some die-off of the organisms that live on the LR, these dead organisms also produce waste and the waste is processed in the same way and when it is fully cycled the LR is cured. In both cases the bacteria I mentioned grow on the porous surface of the LR. This is also why when you start adding livestock to the aquarium you want to do so in small increments instead of dumping everything in there at once. Your tank only grows as much bacteria as is needed to process the waste your tank produces and when you make additions to the tank you are adding more waste and you need to give the bacteria time to multiply to be able to process the added waste.

 

[TimSchmidt]

Well said. By organic matter we meant anything living that would decompose i.e. piece of shrimp, flake food, microscopic organisms on LR, etc... Glad you found an answer that agrees with you!