Newly established 12g nano cube, 10 lb LR, 20 lb LS using Instant Ocean sea mix. Zoos, Yuma Ric Mushroom and candy cane frag. Want to know if I need to supplement any major/minor trace elements, any recommended brands? There are so many brands and options. Can I just buy one bottle that is reef complete supplements? I know that I still have to monitor my water parameters for calicum, iodine...etc level.
Supplements
- Thread starter scunfcu
- Start date
As long as you are staying up on your water changes you should be good. The general rule is do not dose anything that you cant/dont test for. Also, a downfall with the "all-in-one" additives is that if you do indeed test and find your tank to be deficient in something (which a water change can usually fix anyways) then you cant dose just that one thing. Know what I mean?scunfcu said:
Jesse
johnanddawn
New Member
alright here i go again - JMO but.............
i do not recommend that anyone doses ANYTHING in a nano - change water its cheaper, easier, and more effective at maintaning a balance then any suppliment. the only exception to this "rule" is if you have an SPS nano - then kalkwaser dripping combined with water changes will be all you need, except in the most heavily stocked of tanks with rapidly growing corals. ALL dosing suppliments (and i mean EVERY single bottle of miracle snake oil on every single shelf you walk past every time you visit the LFS) for the most part just make money for the manufacturers and sellers and serve no real need in a reef tank (nano or otherwise). period. you can easily do more damage then good by causing wild fluxuations in pH and alk with unneccessary dosing and end up with excess ions of one element or another
i have maintained tanks for 15+ years and the only tanks i have ever added sups to are my SPS tanks because of the rapid calcification of their skeletons, and then all i add is a simple two part Ca/alk sup. sorry to be blunt but then again its not my money your spending so take it for what its worth..........
i do not recommend that anyone doses ANYTHING in a nano - change water its cheaper, easier, and more effective at maintaning a balance then any suppliment. the only exception to this "rule" is if you have an SPS nano - then kalkwaser dripping combined with water changes will be all you need, except in the most heavily stocked of tanks with rapidly growing corals. ALL dosing suppliments (and i mean EVERY single bottle of miracle snake oil on every single shelf you walk past every time you visit the LFS) for the most part just make money for the manufacturers and sellers and serve no real need in a reef tank (nano or otherwise). period. you can easily do more damage then good by causing wild fluxuations in pH and alk with unneccessary dosing and end up with excess ions of one element or another
i have maintained tanks for 15+ years and the only tanks i have ever added sups to are my SPS tanks because of the rapid calcification of their skeletons, and then all i add is a simple two part Ca/alk sup. sorry to be blunt but then again its not my money your spending so take it for what its worth..........
johnanddawn
New Member
in my best effort to make a simple question complicated 
sorry.......
if i'm on top of things i do 5 gallons a weekend - if i get lazy or fall behind i do a 25 gallon change. all the top off water is 100% kalk and because i'm up to like 30 SPS's in there last month for the first time ever i started dosing a version similar to randy's 2 part. i try to test alk and Ca every weekend but don't test anything else. if things don't look right to me i do a water change.
my cubes also vary, i try to do small (5 gallons between the 2) changes monthly. both of my aquapods are at school right now and there are only softies and shrooms in one and a pair of clowns in the other.
the hex (35g) gets 5 gallons a month - it only has leathers, softies and shrooms in there and they don't need (or want for that matter) any more then that. a little neglect is good for them
when i was running the fiji tank (SPS nano now my frag tank) i was pretty on top of 5 gallon bi weekly in about a 29 gallon total volume tank. the only sup in that tank was all the top off water was in the form of a kalk drip.
i am not saying my methodology is the best or that it will even work for everone - its just that i hate hearing all the reef mythology that gets propagated by LFS's and others.
a couple things i find myself repeating all the time:
i believe and practice SIMPLE is BETTER! when it comes to sups and equipment - nanos just don't need most of that stuff.
when you do buy - buy the best - don't buy knockoffs. quality ballasts, bulbs, pumps, skimmers will save you money in the long haul
patience - especially in the start up, taking your time in the early stages will result in more enjoyment and less frustration in the later
happy reefing
sorry.......
if i'm on top of things i do 5 gallons a weekend - if i get lazy or fall behind i do a 25 gallon change. all the top off water is 100% kalk and because i'm up to like 30 SPS's in there last month for the first time ever i started dosing a version similar to randy's 2 part. i try to test alk and Ca every weekend but don't test anything else. if things don't look right to me i do a water change.
my cubes also vary, i try to do small (5 gallons between the 2) changes monthly. both of my aquapods are at school right now and there are only softies and shrooms in one and a pair of clowns in the other.
the hex (35g) gets 5 gallons a month - it only has leathers, softies and shrooms in there and they don't need (or want for that matter) any more then that. a little neglect is good for them
when i was running the fiji tank (SPS nano now my frag tank) i was pretty on top of 5 gallon bi weekly in about a 29 gallon total volume tank. the only sup in that tank was all the top off water was in the form of a kalk drip.
i am not saying my methodology is the best or that it will even work for everone - its just that i hate hearing all the reef mythology that gets propagated by LFS's and others.
a couple things i find myself repeating all the time:
i believe and practice SIMPLE is BETTER! when it comes to sups and equipment - nanos just don't need most of that stuff.
when you do buy - buy the best - don't buy knockoffs. quality ballasts, bulbs, pumps, skimmers will save you money in the long haul
patience - especially in the start up, taking your time in the early stages will result in more enjoyment and less frustration in the later
happy reefing
Thank you for that very thorough description. I can honestly say, without without being facetious, that I have a much better understanding of water quality and it's significance. I've seen pictures of your tanks and if that is all you do......... not bad. The one thing that no one has told me is that the water comes with everything I need in it. That is the picture you have painted correct? Water changes are more to replenish elements then to get rid of the bad. (Almost?) I mean the sump is there to deal with the bad right? Is that why Jesse is doing 1 gallon a day now?
Anyway, seriously thanks.
Anyway, seriously thanks.
I'm doing daily 1-2 gallon water changes right now for a couple reasons... keep in mind that up until this point, I had no skimemr. That is the main reason. Another, I find it easier for me to keep up on. Lately the water changes have slipped to about 4-5 1-2g water changes per week. I also figured out a way to do a 5g water change in 30 seconds! Anyways, a third reason is that I recall an article where they found that small very frequent water changes dilute dissolved organics better than larger, less frequent water changes. The frequency of my water changes will likely decrease though with the addition of the Aqua-C Remora skimmer I just added to my system.KidNano said:
The point is though that water changes are arguably the most important aspect of keeping a nano tank. I personally beleive in changing 25%-50% of your total water volume at least every 2 weeks.
HTH,
Jesse
but are you supplementing anything at all?
And please share details of your 30 second 5 gallon water change. How about a little video of you doing it. I've thought about trying something like that becuase my pump pushs 5 gallons every 25 seconds, but one little slip and it's all over man. I've destroyed my dining room floor once already and my wife forgave me. the 2nd time I don't even want to consider how dead I would be. Especially now that she's 37 weeks prego.
I have to dose to raise the Ca, alk, and occasionally Mg becauseI most of the pre-made waters are deficient on all of thsoe elements plus I have the two croceas and a dozen or so SPS... that tends to drop the Ca pretty quickly. I do not dose anything else like iodine, traces, etc.
As far as the water change goes, I set the temp to match the tank, the SG, Alk, and Ca are usually set right around the tank levels as well.. That is important. Then I set a 5g bucket on the ground in front of the tank. I also have the 5g jug of fresh seawater sitting up on a chair in front of the tank. I start a syphon and suck water out of the display into the 5g bucket on the ground. At the same time I start a syphon to drain the water from the 5g jug into the sump. I use a hose that is a slightly larger diam than the one draining the display.
I only do this once or twice a month. Normally, I have a 1g milk jug that I use. I fill up the milk jug and top off the sump with a gallon of fresh seawater. I can easily remove 1g of water without having to turn the pump off or anything. For these smaller water changes, I dont worry about temp or anything like that.
HTH,
Jesse
As far as the water change goes, I set the temp to match the tank, the SG, Alk, and Ca are usually set right around the tank levels as well.. That is important. Then I set a 5g bucket on the ground in front of the tank. I also have the 5g jug of fresh seawater sitting up on a chair in front of the tank. I start a syphon and suck water out of the display into the 5g bucket on the ground. At the same time I start a syphon to drain the water from the 5g jug into the sump. I use a hose that is a slightly larger diam than the one draining the display.
I only do this once or twice a month. Normally, I have a 1g milk jug that I use. I fill up the milk jug and top off the sump with a gallon of fresh seawater. I can easily remove 1g of water without having to turn the pump off or anything. For these smaller water changes, I dont worry about temp or anything like that.
HTH,
Jesse
johnanddawn
New Member
this is exactly how i do it!reefman23 said:
here are a few more of IMO type thought out loud:
and as far as your question about the reason for water changes i would say yes i change water more for the reason of keeping ions in balance then for removing waste. carbon removes the yellowing compounds, phosban for phosphates, and the growth of corals along with the actions of protein skimmers, the DSB/rock/algae keep nitrates in control. of course water changes also aid in removing a build up of these, but IMO ionic balance is the main reason. BTW this is also why i believe tanks should be heavily stocked with corals and only small amounts of fish. and also that corals come before fish in the stocking list! no one else ever told you that either did they?
again though this is my method, there are many others that work as well or even better but i think that a lot of times the true reason for each aspect of a specific method gets lost in translation and many people end up with a mixed match system of all types of componets that may or may not be neccessary depending on the overall system - do you know what i mean by that???
for example say someone says you need a UV sterilizer (you don't BTW) so you buy one and put it "downstream" from your refuge thereby killing the live foodstuff your trying to add to the tank. see how these two things counteract one another???
another common one i see - someone will say to remove the bioballs from the sump and say that bioballs are a "nitrate factory" but what they missed in the method was that is only true when bioballs are used in wet/dry type set-ups where aerobic bacteria get high quanities of O2. when submerged its just another surface for bacteria not the evil some people will have you believe. see how one part of the equation was lost in translation? you don't need the bioballs - but not for the reason so many quote it to be.
sorry for the book again...... just wanted you to understand where i'm coming from
NO please don't apologize. This is the beginner forum where we come to learn from those who know more then us. Like you and Jesse. The more the better as far as I'm concerned. I had heard that exact half truth about bioballs and removed them from my tank because of it. interesting. So on to your downstream thing about the live food stuff. I read once that in a perfect world our fuges would be mounted above our displays so you don't have a pump affectively killing any live food stuff that's not microstuff. I forget the exact reason they gave, but it seemed to make sense. We'd also loose out on always having a full main display though.
This is good stuff. I like it. Keep it comin if you don't mind.
Jesse. the quote selection thing isn't working for me right now so let's pretend.
Quote"I have to dose to raise the Ca, alk, and occasionally Mg becauseI most of the pre-made waters are deficient" end quote.
I thought you used scripps? This isn't premade. I'm confused. Are you saying that Natural Ocean water doesn't even have the exact balance we need?
This is good stuff. I like it. Keep it comin if you don't mind.
Jesse. the quote selection thing isn't working for me right now so let's pretend.
Quote"I have to dose to raise the Ca, alk, and occasionally Mg becauseI most of the pre-made waters are deficient" end quote.
I thought you used scripps? This isn't premade. I'm confused. Are you saying that Natural Ocean water doesn't even have the exact balance we need?
You are right in that Scripps is natural seawater as opposed to premade. I do use Scripps about 25% of the time. I got tired of driving up the 55 to get it every time! I mainly use it now when I need to drop my Alk or Ca. It is low in both of those areas. My testings show the Alk to be around 7.68 dKH (2.74 meq/L) and the Ca to be around 350 ppm which is right at the levels they got over at sdreefs.com too. It is deficient in Mg too at about 1200. The SG is right where I keep my tank though, 35 ppt.KidNano said:
Check this out from sdreefs.com...
Jesse
Tell me about it. I hate that drive too. Glad I don't have to make it. I got the number to get home delivery of Scripps. $0.75 a gallon. unfortunately there is a 100 gallon minimum.
So I guess this is probably why there isn't a reef in the location where Scripps collects their water huh? Makes sense.
I didn't realize I was going to have to become a chemist when I entered this hobby. still so much to learn. I still don't even have a decent test kit. using the strips. I haven't found a kit that just has what I want. I'll probably just get the individual tests that I need. Like why does red sea have a kit that tests 3 different kinds of ammonia and 4 different kinds of Nitrates? don't get it.
So what mix do you use the other 75% of the time?
johnanddawn
New Member
i use reef crystals as it mixes up - at sg 1.025.
Table 1. Parameters critical to control in reef aquaria.
this is from randy holmes farley:
Parameter:
Reef Aquaria Recommendation: Typical Surface Ocean Value
Calcium 380-450 ppm : 420 ppm
Alkalinity 2.5-4 meq/L 7-11 dKH : 2.5 meq/L 7 dKH
sg = 1.026 : sg = 1.025-1.027
Temperature 76-83° F : Variable
8.1-8.3 : 8.0-8.3
Magnesium 1250-1350 ppm : 1280 ppm
many people try to maintain alk a bit higher then NSW because it allows a bit of "play" should things go bad but i like to be at about 3 to 3.5 meq/l and Ca around 400 ppm +/- 50, if i test in this range i'm happy. its easier to be stable (which truely is more important) at a little lower levels then trying to maintain elevated levels at a little above NSW - but again this is a IMO thing as you will find others disagree. either way you go stay in randy's recs - they are sound
after your tank is 6 months old and all you need to test is alk and Ca unless there is a problem, and test no more then weekly and you can even start to test less once you get balanced and get a good practice down. i only test my SPS tanks -my softy and fish tanks i don't even test anymore i just try to stick to my water changes, careful observation can be just as effective ie you'll know if something is wrong once you have a feel for your tank
as far as the refuge is concerned you are absolutely correct but it is a semantics arguement. a "true" refuge as the term was originally used is a tank upstream from the display that has a very low flow and is gravity feed back to the tank. it does not neccessarily effect the displays water level though as you suggested, but can in a nano. the original idea was to have a place safe from predation where planktonic foods could reproduce, grow and be added to the tank without having to go through (to quote nemo "the spinning whorl of death" a pump.
fuges in a sump are actually a version of an algae scrubber where their primary focus is the use of algal growth on an inverted light schedual to reduce nutrients and fluxs in pH. these typically have higher flow then a fuge would need and always have a pump back to the tank. some plankton of course will make it up to the tank. again 2 dif applications to similar ideas. both have important benifits but are not neccessarily a substitute for one another. they are different! a tank without planktonic preditors may not need a true fuge as the plankton reproduces in sufficient quantities in the tank. a tank with a very high bioload of fed fish may need a sump with algae to reduce the nitrates/PO4s.
OK i'm done again........ but as you can tell i enjoy talking reefs so ask away if you want more.........
Table 1. Parameters critical to control in reef aquaria.
this is from randy holmes farley:
Parameter:
Reef Aquaria Recommendation: Typical Surface Ocean Value
Calcium 380-450 ppm : 420 ppm
Alkalinity 2.5-4 meq/L 7-11 dKH : 2.5 meq/L 7 dKH
sg = 1.026 : sg = 1.025-1.027
Temperature 76-83° F : Variable
8.1-8.3 : 8.0-8.3
Magnesium 1250-1350 ppm : 1280 ppm
many people try to maintain alk a bit higher then NSW because it allows a bit of "play" should things go bad but i like to be at about 3 to 3.5 meq/l and Ca around 400 ppm +/- 50, if i test in this range i'm happy. its easier to be stable (which truely is more important) at a little lower levels then trying to maintain elevated levels at a little above NSW - but again this is a IMO thing as you will find others disagree. either way you go stay in randy's recs - they are sound
after your tank is 6 months old and all you need to test is alk and Ca unless there is a problem, and test no more then weekly and you can even start to test less once you get balanced and get a good practice down. i only test my SPS tanks -my softy and fish tanks i don't even test anymore i just try to stick to my water changes, careful observation can be just as effective ie you'll know if something is wrong once you have a feel for your tank
as far as the refuge is concerned you are absolutely correct but it is a semantics arguement. a "true" refuge as the term was originally used is a tank upstream from the display that has a very low flow and is gravity feed back to the tank. it does not neccessarily effect the displays water level though as you suggested, but can in a nano. the original idea was to have a place safe from predation where planktonic foods could reproduce, grow and be added to the tank without having to go through (to quote nemo
"the spinning whorl of death" a pump.fuges in a sump are actually a version of an algae scrubber where their primary focus is the use of algal growth on an inverted light schedual to reduce nutrients and fluxs in pH. these typically have higher flow then a fuge would need and always have a pump back to the tank. some plankton of course will make it up to the tank. again 2 dif applications to similar ideas. both have important benifits but are not neccessarily a substitute for one another. they are different! a tank without planktonic preditors may not need a true fuge as the plankton reproduces in sufficient quantities in the tank. a tank with a very high bioload of fed fish may need a sump with algae to reduce the nitrates/PO4s.
OK i'm done again........
but as you can tell i enjoy talking reefs so ask away if you want more.........I actually use the water from OC Aquatics. I was told that it was just Catalina water, but its levels are just about where I need them: Alk is around 8.96 dKH, Ca around 375 (a little low but easier to fix), PO4 is almost non-existant. It's $0.35/gallon too.KidNano said:
I tested the water I ogt from Circle Pets one time and I got an Alk of 12.8 dKH (very high), Ca of 340 (pretty low). I think it was more than $0.35 too.
HTH,
Jesse
Some of this info could have helped me with my Miracle Mud thread. I thought you serious reefers walked around in lab coats with little vials and test tubes dosing things in minute levels and what not. I thought heck if Miracle mud will keep people from that then heck...... It must be a miracle. I wonder if it maintains calcium and Alk levels though. then their would be no dosing right? interesting.
thanks for all the info. now I just have to figure out what all that stuff means. Like DKH and meq/L. I got the PPM down. That one is easy.
thanks for all the info. now I just have to figure out what all that stuff means. Like DKH and meq/L. I got the PPM down. That one is easy.
dKH= degrees of carbonate hardnessKidNano said:
meq/L= milliequivalents
They are two units of measurements of the same thing... that's all.
PPM is one of the popular units of measurement when it comes to traces and such, but to confuse you even more there is also ‰ (parts per thousand) i.e. salinty... 35‰. There is even ppb (parts per billion) and ppt (parts per trillion) which is not used as often but I have seen when it comes to some of the traces in salt mixes etc.
Jesse