Power Head Output

sympley

New Member
Hello,

I was wondering if the output of the power heads can be added together to get the required water turn over or does each power head has to have the needed turn over rate. For example if I am aiming at a turnover rate of 600gph do I need to purchase 2 or 3 PH that have 600 rating each or would I be able to get away with 3 PH at a rating of 200gph.
 

Trogdor

New Member
How big of a tank are you putting the 690gph in? Unless you are running a tank over 30g, (or it's bare bottom) you will end up with one hell of a dust storm. In most tanks with a sand substrate, you can probably push 20x's your tank size without stirring the sand too much. You shouldn't need much over 20x's unless you have SPS corals. Just to give you an idea, the 29g that I'm setting up will start with about 10x's the tank size to make sure that I'm not just blowing sand around and then gradually move up to about 15x's.

Edit: I just searched and found that you are running a 12g. Is this the tank that's getting the 690gph? If so, you will be turning your water over 57x's per hour. Which is just under once per minute...that's a TON of water flow. You should aim for 180-240gph unless you have SPS corals. If this is going in a larger tank then you can ignore this but thought i would give you a heads up before you bought the power heads.
 

reefman23

New Member
His sig says he has a 20g... that is not too much at all. I have about 650-700gph in my 20L and I am in need of more flow. It is all about distributing the flow well enough to AVOID sandstorms. And 20x turnover is extremely low flow... most corals, even zoanthids, softies, etc benefit from 40x+ turnover... SPS should be 80x-100x or more. I would really reconsider your goals for flow.

Jesse
 

Trogdor

New Member
Sorry, I should have specified. I was speaking to Rescuediver19 when asking about the 690gph.

Reefman...can you post a link that has info about the flow that you were describing? I can't recall any reference stating that you should aim for 40x's turnover. IMO that seems overkill. So for a 29 gallon tank, I should be aiming for 2900gph (assuming 100x's)? I would need a generator to run just my powerheads. :shock: I think my parents still have their pool filter from their 29ft pool, think that will work? :lol: jk but seriously if you have a reference I would be interested in reading it.
 

rescuediver19

New Member
Oh... I dont have that much flow... yet :twisted: haha Im running 1 maxijet 900 and it seems to be doing the trick... everything seems happy!. the 3 mj900's were just a suggestion.
 

reefman23

New Member
Pretty much any reputable source of reef info will stress the importance of adequate flow. Random, turbulant flow is always better than a laminar flow achieved by using just one or two directional powerheads.

-- http://www.wetwebmedia.com/circmarart.htm

Here is a very thorough 4-part series:

--Part 1: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/6/ ... hterm=flow

--Part 2: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/ ... hterm=flow

--Part 3: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/ ... hterm=flow

--Part 4: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11 ... hterm=flow

--Here is one of my posts from another forum that was answered by Anthony Calfo among a few other reputable sources. It initially is regarding an SPS system but does shift to a zoanthid-dominated tank... http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic50521 ... =reefman23

--This is a good one: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... ginner.htm

--And another: http://www.reefland.com/rho/2006/03/wat ... uarium.php

--A brief post from this site: http://www.nanotank.com/forum/viewtopic ... light=flow

I will post more when I find them.

Jesse

*EDIT* This one may help...
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/r_ ... 71397.html
 

Trogdor

New Member
So far the only place that I have found (out of the links above) anyone stating that you need more than 10-20x's your volume was out of your thread on marinedepot.com.

What strikes me more is that this is coming form someone that is suggesting that you perform "near 100% weekly water changes for "small" tanks (under 100 galls... usually a single barrel of water to do the big wc on any such tank)."

Personally, I wouldn't put much faith in his recommendations.

Here are some quotes from the last link that you posted...

"With regard to water movement in reef aquariums, many authors will advocate at least 10 times the volume of the aquarium per hour. So if you have a 100-gallon reef, you should be moving around 1000 gallons/hour. This is a fine starting point as long as you understand that this does not mean that you need to move 1000 gallons of water in and out of your aquarium.

Many reef aquarists use some sort of overflow in the tank to take water to an external container called a sump. In the sump various tools such as protein skimmers, carbon containers, reactors, etc. filter the water. The water is then returned to the aquarium. This is referred to as an open loop. The volume of water that flows through this loop need only be 3-4 times the volume of the tank (not 10+). This is the filtration flow rate. The rule of thumb that was mentioned earlier refers to the circulation rate in the aquarium. This number takes into account, not only the return from the filter, but circulation from various other pumps as well. I cannot tell you how many times people have come to me and asked how they can quiet there filter down on their 90 gallon tank because they are trying to put 900 gallons/hr through their overflow."

"Dana Riddle published an interesting article on water motion in the reef aquarium and arrived at some guidelines that I have found match my experiences. He suggests that aquariums with soft and large-polyped stoney corals should use (1) powerhead equivalent to that of a Maxi-jet 500 (rated at 1.75ft. /sec) per 24â€
 

reefman23

New Member
If you can eliminate dead-zones and detritus from collecting all throught your sandbed and LR while only having 10x-15x turnover in your tank, go for it. If you can distribute 10x-15x turnover throught the entire system in a manner that will provide proper flow to all corals, go for it. You will notice MUCH better growth, polyp extension, "plumpness" of tissue, extension of feeding tentacles, longer skirtes in zoantids and palys, etc with a more appropriate flow closer to 30x-40x per hour. You will also notice that you will not have to clean your sandbed, you will not get any detritus build-up around the base of your LR, you will not have any dead-spots, and you will keep "solids" in suspension where it can be properly removed by your filtration.

There are MANY MANY variables to consider too. What kind of flow do you have, your rockwork, denisty of corals, what kind of corals, etc. I can guarantee you though that you WILL NOT see the same results in a 20g (for example) that has 200GPH as opposed to 400-600GPH. And really, you almost HAVE TO TRY to keep yourself limited to 10-15x turnover. If you have a HOB powerfilter and a powerhead or two that are appropriatly sized for a 20g tank, you are already looking at about 500 gph.

Also consider where most of our corals are located... shallow tropical reefs at around 5ft-30ft of depth. This is the most turbulant part of the entire ocean! Constant tidal fluctuations, waves, storms, etc. If you had 100x turnover in a tank, that is NOWHERE NEAR what the corals would experience on their home reef.

And the topic of 100% water changes is A WHOLE DIFFERENT THREAD. But if you are trying to say that someone who practices everything he preaches, tours the country and the world teaching and speaking, studies reef tanks and HUSBANDRY FOR A LIVING, and has threads that are dedicated for him to answer people's questions on multiple sites is someone whos info cannot be trusted, your crazy. Calfo does weekly 99%-100% water changes and has showed tremendous pictoral evidence of the benefits. Edgray (a member of this site) also practices this method and he too has shown incredible results. BTW, he also has like 3 powerheads in his 12g including an upgraded return pump.

You also misunderstand MY system. I do have alternating current, yes. It alternates every 6 seconds. BUT, it alternates 650gph ... this means that 650 gph comes from one end of the tank... then that 650 gph alternates to the other end of the tank.

You also wouldnt need 7.5 powerheads in your tank if you had the appropriatly sized powerheads. MJ600's are good to eliminate dead zones behind your LR or around the sandbed, but they are designed for smaller tanks. If you had 3 MJ1200s, you would be right around 900 gph and be at about 30x turnover... a much better place to be.

What you have to remember is that corals are sessile inverts that really entirely on water flow for removing the wastes they create as well as the noxious chemicals that they create (which can lead do RTN, loss of growth, and death), and also for food supply. many corals get some of their nutrients from the water column.

It is an indisputable fact that there are three EQUALLY IMPORTANT factors in a reef tank... 1), proper lighting 2)proper water quality 3) proper water flow.

Jesse
 

Trogdor

New Member
Well I learned something tonight. Tall tanks act so much differently to flow than the long tanks. I purchased my 29g tank tonight. I filled it up for a leak test and placed all of my power heads, filters and my (to be) AC20 fuge modded filter in place. All I can say is that if I have enough flow, it is just barely. I'm running a MJ600 (160gph), a 125gph power head, Magnum HOT filter (250gph) and the AC20 which is barely noticeable (100gph) for a total of 630gph (which is almost 22x my volume). I have another power head which I can probably get another 160gph out of it (if I can get it fully secured).

I didn't place my rockwork or sand in yet so I can't comment on exactly how this is going to work. ATM in a bare tank, I would say that I need ATLEAST another MJ900. Don't get me wrong, there were currents and the water column was moving constantly. But near the bottom of the tank I couldn't get enough flow to really pick a piece of grass off of it and pull it back into the water column. Not only that but the current that I was getting wasn't very chaotic. Right now I'm going to see if there is a way that I can secure the other power head that i have. If not then it's back to the LFS for another power head.

Thanks Jesse for opening my eyes. From my past experience with my 20L, I would have never thought that this tall tank would need this much flow. :maitre
 

rescuediver19

New Member
I use a hydro deflector to make wave like action... Im sure you know about these, but I figured I'd mention it incase you didnt
 

sympley

New Member
Thank you guys for all the input. All the info and suggestions are...priceless.

I will be running the following in my 20g:
2x maxi-jet 600 - I have to say I got them yesterday and these look like good quality powerheads. I know looks could be deceiving, but I hope I will have good luck with these.

1x CPR refugium with protein skimmer which is being run by maxi-jet 1200 (265GPH).

Total flow of 585GPH just under 30x the tank volume.

Someone has mentioned that it is better to have a flow that is changing directions, how can I achieve that? Do I need a special controller, these are expensive.
Any other suggestion for water flow?
Someone mentioned that they could not pick up a piece of glass from the bottom of the tank, isn't that a good thing? If the glass would have been picked up then if sand is in a place of the glass it would be all over tank? of glass
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
as usual it seems as if jeese and i are on the same page of thought
a couple comments...... from my own observations for what its worth, to anyone thinking about flow
1) wave maker timers with MJ's are awesome at suspending and collecting detritus up and eliminating dead spots - proper positioning is a must though
2) seios and tunze streams can add huge flow at low pressure to the bottom/mid level of your tank and/or behind rockwork without disrupting sandbeds if properly placed
3) spray bars can be added to higher flow PH and return pumps to eliminate the jet from the front end and disperse it (or a hydro as rescue suggested)
4) you can get flow with large return pumps but they often create dead spots rather then eliminate them because the return is usually to the top of the tank and in one or two spots. this is where PH and streams come in, it is better in general to have a couple in tank PH's then one huge return pump

want an extreme example in action??? check out the flow in my SPS fiji nano: 4 seio 620's (2480gph), 3 900MJ's on a wave timer (so say 300+/- more at any given moment)
all this in a 12" tall 22 gal tank (thats 128x) and i wish i could do more!!! :) oh yea and there are zoas in there too and they love it too
 

amf82380

New Member
you know this is something i never thought about in my tank so I would like some opions I have an aqua clear 70 and a seaclone 100 protein skimmer on a standard 10gal tank would like some recommendations on what kinda flow i have now and what i should have (Their is no sps in this tank just zoo palys a couple mushrooms and lps thats it) so I would like to increase my flow with out spending an arm and a leg so I would like some opions on what I should add and where with out making my display look like a show room for diffrent PH models thanks all
 

reefman23

New Member
sympley said:
I have to say I got them yesterday and these look like good quality powerheads. I know looks could be deceiving, but I hope I will have good luck with these.
MJ's are great powerheads... nothing to worry about there with the quality.


sympley said:
Someone has mentioned that it is better to have a flow that is changing directions, how can I achieve that? Do I need a special controller, these are expensive.
Aim the two powerheads at eachother from opposite ends of the tank... this will create a more turbulent flow rather than laminar.


sympley said:
Someone mentioned that they could not pick up a piece of glass from the bottom of the tank, isn't that a good thing? If the glass would have been picked up then if sand is in a place of the glass it would be all over tank? of glass
They were referring to a piece of GRASS, not glass. Most sand is pretty resistant to flow... I mean, you can get a pretty good amount of flow over a sand bed of appropriately-sized sand without disturbing the sand.



amf82380 said:
you know this is something i never thought about in my tank so I would like some opions I have an aqua clear 70 and a seaclone 100 protein skimmer on a standard 10gal tank would like some recommendations on what kinda flow i have now and what i should have (Their is no sps in this tank just zoo palys a couple mushrooms and lps thats it) so I would like to increase my flow with out spending an arm and a leg so I would like some opions on what I should add and where with out making my display look like a show room for diffrent PH models thanks all
You could use a couple small powerheads on either end of the tank about half way down and aim them towards eachother.



Just because there are no SPS in a tank doesnt mean you couldnt or SHOULDNT have 30x-45x or more turnover rate... THIS IS NOT HIGH FLOW! High flow is 60x, 70x, 80x turnover up into 100, 110x, 130x or more.

LIke John said, it isnt impossible at all to have 40x or so turnover in ANY tank. THe benefits you will see are HUGE, trust me.

Jesse
 

amf82380

New Member
whats the most compact sized power heads out there that would work for this like I said I already have an ac70 and a protein skimmer on there and no sump or fuge or anything so I have a bunch of stuff in the display as it is so i dont want 50% of the display to be a equipment flea martket
 
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