FOWLR sump

[The Kapenta Kid]

Apart from my Nano I have a 50 gal which I currently run as a FOWLR although I may upgrade it to Reef eventually.
I just built a sump for it. A 13 gal plastic box with three baffles. The sections are arranged as follows: Inflow from tank to first section, overflow into second section, underflow from second to to third section, and overflow to final return pump section.
Would the correct sequence of media be, sponges in the first section to mechanically intercept any coarse detritus that is rising to the overflow Live rock rubble and possibly macroalgae in the second and third sections to provide nitration and refugium space. Nothing in the fourth section or possibly carbon or phos/nitrate resins if required to treat water flowing down to the return pump?
I assume that it woiuld not be a good idea to put bio-ball type filter media into it at all.

 

[drty811]

if its for FOWLR then you can use the bio-balls. with the bio balls you dont want them sumerged. youll want the water to flow over them, they need air to work. sounds good so far though.

heres acouple links to the DIY sumps i have built.....
http://www.nanotank.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3576
http://www.nanotank.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1734

 

[The Kapenta Kid]

Thanks. I guess I used the term bio-balls loosely. What I have to hand is a bunch of little plastic media that look like little cog wheels, about 1/4 to 1/3 in, dia and with hollow centers. They came with a Ritz skilter which I use on my 15gal Nano but only for its skimming function, I have the chamber where the plastic media should be filled with LR rubble.
Would it be useful to put these media somewhere in my FOWLR sump?
As far as I understand it, the goal in a reef tank is to minimize nitrate which coral inverts don't like. This doesn't matter so much in a FOWLR as long as you keep exporting the nitrate via water changes. Bio-media are very efficient at oxidizing ammonia to final nitrate. If you don't have inverts that are particularly sensitive to nitrate in your tank, then using bio-media enables a somewhat higher fish load since these media will deal effectively with the extra ammonia output.
Is this a correct understanding?
I liked your sump links. I am not a neat DIYr. I didn't even get the store to grind the edges of the glass baffles for my sump, so this place is so blood-stained it looks like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre :lol:

 

[KidNano]

this place is so blood-stained it looks like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre

That is really unfortunate.

with the bio balls you dont want them sumerged. youll want the water to flow over them, they need air to work.

I don't know from experience but I believe I heard JohnandDawn say that a wet dry filter with bioballs as indicated is a bad idea. Nitrate factory. If submerged they are fine, however I could be misrepresenting what he told me. I'll try to find where he said it.

 

[reefman23]

I don't know from experience but I believe I heard JohnandDawn say that a wet dry filter with bioballs as indicated is a bad idea. Nitrate factory. If submerged they are fine, however I could be misrepresenting what he told me. I'll try to find where he said it.

This is true in a reef tank. A FOWLR is a bit different.

Jesse

 

[johnanddawn]

I have the chamber where the plastic media should be filled with LR rubble.

I never recomend putting rubble in any sump or filter because it tends to collect detritus and in a tank full of live rock has little value anyway

Would it be useful to put these media somewhere in my FOWLR sump?
As far as I understand it, the goal in a reef tank is to minimize nitrate which coral inverts don't like. This doesn't matter so much in a FOWLR as long as you keep exporting the nitrate via water changes. Bio-media are very efficient at oxidizing ammonia to final nitrate. If you don't have inverts that are particularly sensitive to nitrate in your tank, then using bio-media enables a somewhat higher fish load since these media will deal effectively with the extra ammonia output.
Is this a correct understanding?

This is correct and as a matter of fact where the whole idea of bioballs and wet/dry filters came from. back in the day before live rock wet/drys were developed to meet the needs of fish tanks with ever increasing bioloads. drty's second link shows the correct implentation of this methodology. any inert materal that rinses clean easily can be used as bioballs. large fish secreet large amounts of deadly amm, and that needs to be cycled quickly. however that being said - today with the incorperation of live rock in fish tanks if the bioload is kept reasonable - many do not use wet/drys any more.

[/quote]

kidnano - i'm not sure of the reference but i probably said something about it in answer to someone removing the bioballs from their nanotank and replacing it with rubble - because when submerged the bioballs simply become another surface for bacteria and they lose there effectiveness that way as - it is not there intended use, which is in a wet dry type set-up. there are a few special case tanks (usually very small with large loads and either fake rock or little to no rock) where putting rubble in an external sump or filter is needed but in general this is a practice that IMO got misapplied and then became part of nanotank mythology. most who have actually tried this soon realize that they just created a detritus trap that is difficult to clean
i use a wet/dry bioball type DIY filter on the trough i winter my koi in. koi are heavy feeders and this is the best way to elliminate amm. this is the only tank i own that has bioballs

 

[johnanddawn]

here is a link to a simple wet/dry you can use to model that F&S offer
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/P ... 2004+22778
BTW even though i never recomend UV sterilizers for reef tanks they can be quite the asset on a fowler to help reduce potential pathogens

 

[The Kapenta Kid]

Thanks to all for the tips and links.
I dunno where I got the idea of live rock rubble in the sump. I probably got mixed up with refugiums. I had rather hoped that if I put a light over the sump I might be able to grow macro-algae there on live rock.

 

[KidNano]

kidnano - i'm not sure of the reference but i probably said something about it in answer to someone removing the bioballs from their nanotank and replacing it with rubble - because when submerged the bioballs simply become another surface for bacteria and they lose there effectiveness that way as - it is not there intended use, which is in a wet dry type set-up. there are a few special case tanks (usually very small with large loads and either fake rock or little to no rock) where putting rubble in an external sump or filter is needed but in general this is a practice that IMO got misapplied and then became part of nanotank mythology. most who have actually tried this soon realize that they just created a detritus trap that is difficult to clean
i use a wet/dry bioball type DIY filter on the trough i winter my koi in. koi are heavy feeders and this is the best way to elliminate amm. this is the only tank i own that has bioballs

This is pretty much how I remember what you said before. Thanks for coming and clarifying for us as I couldn't find the other post.

 

[The Kapenta Kid]

Here is a crude diagram of what I am doing at present.

The only area of interest is the second chamber of the sump.
It contains a few liters of plastic filter media. They are kept in position by sponges (black) across the surface of the chamber.
Water from chamber 1 overflows in as thin layer across the sponge and along with air/oxygen is drawn down through the sponge and underlying biomedia and hence to chamber 3 and chamber four, the return pump chamber.
Do you think this will work as a sump/filter for a FOWLR.?
Nothing is set in stone, I am just playing around with the possibilities.

 

[KidNano]

Are you putting anything in Chamber #3?

 

[The Kapenta Kid]

My initial idea was to put some live-rock and macro-alagae in there with a light over it and hope that it would become some sort of refugium for pod production. But I realize that the optimal flow rates through sump filters and refugiums may be different, so it isjust empty for the moment. any suggestions?