"12 gallon" Nano cube holds 7 gallons?

[Fishy]

I just set up my new "12 gallon" nano cube. I put in 7 gallons of saltwater and 8 pounds of live sand. The tank is totally full. So, how is it 12 gallons? I'm a chemist and measured very accurately. It makes a HUGE difference in how much of various things to add if the tank is 6 gallons in the main area (1 gallon in the filter) and not 12 gallons as they claim! What's going on?

Making the saltwater was a pain. I have a stir plate and stir bar and put in 2 gallons of water (properly measured) into a plastic litter bucket (I use tons of those) and a cup of Instant Ocean per the directions. [No dechlorinator since I have well water.] After fully dissolved, and then some, I measured it with two hydrometers. I kept getting two high. I diluted and then too low and back and forth. This is too hard for a chemist! I figured out I have to stick scissors down into the hydrometer and beat up the needle to get the bubbles off, or the reading is always high. Do you guys rely on the known amount of salt to add or use the hydrometer or always both?

I pulled out the ceramic rings but left the measly 4 bioballs and bag of carbon and 4 sponges. The water was really cloudy from the sand but is clearing. I saw one big amphipod? and an isopod? swimming around; they're not kidding about being live sand even though it was packed months ago! I haven't seen them since (sucked into the filter)?

The pump is 166 gallons according to the directions (106 according to the store I got it from). Is that enough for what we now know is just 7 gallons? There is no way to put in a powerhead; only one opening in the back I opened up for the heater cord. Is 75 degrees F a good setting?

Next step, live rock! Then, I'm supposed to wait a month?

Since I've only got a 7 gallon tank now, I guess I won't be getting many animals. :anxious

 

[AlexfromSATX]

For the measurment of Salt I would recommend getting a Refractometer, just because every Hydrometer I ever used was always a different measurment. Since I bought a refractometer I have been very Sane! As far as the pump is concerned when I had my 12g cube I swapped out the stockl powerhead for a Maxi-Jet 900, for more flow. For me it seemed to run cooler than the stock pump. Also, for the heater I keep mine at 77 and it keeps my tank at a constant 80, which is in my 40 breeder. I can't remember ever needing a heater in my nano, of course I live in a hotter area. Guess it will just be trial and error to see where your tank is at when your heater is set at 75. Oh and

:welcome

 

[Fishy]

Thanks for replying Alex. How did you rig the Maxi-Jet to the tubing it comes with? Did it just fit as is?

I made an error. Looking at my notes, the 12 gallon nano cube took 7 gallons in the main area and 1 gallon in the filter for 8 gallons total (not 7). Still, not 12 gallons!

I put in 11.5 pounds of live rock today. It has a nice big (dead) clam, some coralline algae, what the guy said was a small (good he said) fire coral (is that okay?; it's small and may not even be alive), some long worm (looks like a freshwater blackworm), and he said some tiny sponges (looks like nothing to me).

I tested the water for the first time. Here are the results.
pH 7.8
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate <10 ppm (may be zero but there was a little color)
Alkalinity 125 ppm as CaCO3
Calcium 315 ppm
Anything else I should test?

I put in Instant Ocean at a SG of 1.022 yesterday (final got that right) and single dose of Microbe-Lift all in one reef supplement because I assumed my alkalinity, hardness, pH, calcium, etc. would be low since our well water is practically like distilled water. So, I was right, the pH, alkalinity, and calcium are too low, right? What should I do about that?

Is there anyone (moderator, creator?) who comes through and reads and responds to all the posts. I ask because I run a forum myself, and I read all posts and be sure all questions are answered (even if it's "I don't know.") I've asked a number of questions in three posts now, and while a few people made some comments, few of my questions have actually been answered. I could really use some advice. Thanks!

 

[reefman23]

Is there anyone (moderator, creator?) who comes through and reads and responds to all the posts. I ask because I run a forum myself, and I read all posts and be sure all questions are answered (even if it's "I don't know.") I've asked a number of questions in three posts now, and while a few people made some comments, few of my questions have actually been answered. I could really use some advice. Thanks!

I visit the site several times a day to check in on new posts. I dont always have time to respond to them though. I checked your three posts and I think your first post was answered pretty well and the second post was pretty well addressed as well considering it has been less that 24 hours and this site has a relatively small "regular" member base. In regards to the size issue, I have heard that many of the cubes are indeed smaller that the listed size. I have heard that this is because the manufacturers use the OUTSIDE dimensions of the cube and not the inside?? I dont know if that is true or not though.

Jesse

 

[SaltWaterNewb]

I think I did a heck of a job answering the questions in one of your threads. You are the one that failed to reply to that with a thanks or at least an acknowledgment that you read them and understood.

http://www.nanotank.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5277

As far as your testing, you only need to maintain you temp., test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Keep an eye on your salinity as well. You might also want to bump that up to around 1.025 if you are going to keep corals. That is during the cycle. Other things will be all over the charts and not stable so no point in testing for it really. Once the cycle is complete and things start to stabilize then start doing your full battery of tests.

Agree with the suggestion to get a refractometer.

Tap water whether city or well might not be the best idea. There is A LOT of stuff in non-filtered water that can create problems in a SW tank. You might be better off using distilled or better yet RO/DI water.

 

[djconn]

Welcome to the site Fishy. You're doing a good job with your tank. Just have patience and it will all come together. Yes, replace the stock powerhead or better yet, just add another one. I know some people are concerning with heat but honestly, the best thing I ever did in my 6 gallon nanocube was to add another small PH to the front area of the tank. Far less algae!

I also run two heaters in my NC6. Why you say? I like to think of it as a back up in case one dies on me. I have one set at 77 and the other one set to come on at 72 in case the first one dies. I know it's risky b/c one heater might just get stuck 'on' and cook everything. I don't like to think about that. :roll:

Yes, I'd add LR and wait 2-4 weeks for the cycle to end. Then the fun begins.

I'm the site owner and administrator of this site. I, like everyone else, don't have time to read over all the posts every day either. We try our best and that is all you can do. I feel that you have gotten all your questions adequately answered at this time.

ps. I checked out your site. Any chance you could add a link to my site?

 

[johnanddawn]

I just set up my new "12 gallon" nano cube. I put in 7 gallons of saltwater and 8 pounds of live sand. The tank is totally full. So, how is it 12 gallons? I'm a chemist and measured very accurately. It makes a HUGE difference in how much of various things to add if the tank is 6 gallons in the main area (1 gallon in the filter) and not 12 gallons as they claim! What's going on?

as jesse said i believe the outside dimentions are used and they do not take in acount space lost to filter/equipment - not really a big deal but interesting i always thought they were about 10 actual gallons

Making the saltwater was a pain. I have a stir plate and stir bar and put in 2 gallons of water (properly measured) into a plastic litter bucket (I use tons of those) and a cup of Instant Ocean per the directions. [No dechlorinator since I have well water.] After fully dissolved, and then some, I measured it with two hydrometers. I kept getting two high. I diluted and then too low and back and forth. This is too hard for a chemist! I figured out I have to stick scissors down into the hydrometer and beat up the needle to get the bubbles off, or the reading is always high. Do you guys rely on the known amount of salt to add or use the hydrometer or always both?

sounds to me like you were trying to measure your salinity right as/after mixing up the water cause you had bubbles on the swing arm. salt water should be aged at least 24 hours before measuring. as a chemist you can understand prob better then i how all the different salts interact as well as the buffers and the CO2 in the water - it needs to stabilize first and have CO2/O2 balance. you should find that most salts mix up about as they say 1.021 which is too low for a reef - you will need a bit more shot for 1.025

I pulled out the ceramic rings but left the measly 4 bioballs and bag of carbon and 4 sponges. The water was really cloudy from the sand but is clearing. I saw one big amphipod? and an isopod? swimming around; they're not kidding about being live sand even though it was packed months ago! I haven't seen them since (sucked into the filter)?

i would remove everything but one filter sponge that you are willing to take out and clean at least once a week - you do not need anything else back there

The pump is 166 gallons according to the directions (106 according to the store I got it from). Is that enough for what we now know is just 7 gallons? There is no way to put in a powerhead; only one opening in the back I opened up for the heater cord. Is 75 degrees F a good setting?

the pump is fine and like dj said addind a koralia #1 wouldn't hurt but i run mine stock and they work just fine

Next step, live rock! Then, I'm supposed to wait a month?

cycling has been addressed endlessly. i would leave your lights off for at least a month while you think and plan for future purchases. i find that if you stick with shrooms, softies/ leathers, and maybe zoas no mods are needed and with patience, simple water changes and good maintenence you'll have a nice tank in 6 months
[/quote]

 

[johnanddawn]

I put in 11.5 pounds of live rock today. It has a nice big (dead) clam, some coralline algae, what the guy said was a small (good he said) fire coral (is that okay?; it's small and may not even be alive), some long worm (looks like a freshwater blackworm), and he said some tiny sponges (looks like nothing to me).

I tested the water for the first time. Here are the results.
pH 7.8
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate <10 ppm (may be zero but there was a little color)
Alkalinity 125 ppm as CaCO3
Calcium 315 ppm
Anything else I should test?

I put in Instant Ocean at a SG of 1.022 yesterday (final got that right) and single dose of Microbe-Lift all in one reef supplement because I assumed my alkalinity, hardness, pH, calcium, etc. would be low since our well water is practically like distilled water. So, I was right, the pH, alkalinity, and calcium are too low, right? What should I do about that?
I could really use some advice. Thanks!

testing your water is fun and interesting but in my opinion after you are set up and running all you need to monitor in a nano is temperature and salinity. if you do small frequent water changes you will not need to dose or sumpplimate anything. ALK and Ca will be within norms if you are using a good salt (IO is OK RC is better) NO2 and ammonia will not be present in a properly set up and cycled tank and NO3 and PO4 will be kept in check with your water changes. all other minor elements ( I, K, Mg, Si, ect.) and tests do not matter either as long as you do water changes.
if you are really concerned about the "softness" of your well water a little baking soda (arm and hammer) will raise the ALK and a little CaCl like kents turbo calcium will raise that. but as i said choosing a better salt is better then dosing when it comes to nanos - way to easy to do more damage dosing.

 

[Fishy]

Guys, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was getting responses to my posts. I opted to be e-mailed when I got a response which it did for the first response and then not again. I haven't been back recently thinking I wasn't getting responses.

Well, bad me got tired of looking at diatoms and these little black and white worm-like things (two or three of those), and some little green grass-like stuff, and corralline algae. So, I got my first animals. Unfortunately, things only went half good. I ordered 4 minute reef-safe hermit crabs (got 6) and 6 snails of three species (got 7). After over an hour of drip acclimation, I put them in. The crabs have done great (two days now). The snails promptly died (the crabs then ate the ones that opened up). I called the store. They said it was the low salinity.

Here's the e-mail I sent them (modified) to save me some time.

"...I ordered 4 dwarf hermits of 4 species and 6 snails of 3 species
for my "12 gallon nano cube" reef tank. You guys sent 6 hermits and 7
snails. They were tiny which was good. I took 1 gallon from the tank and
dripped it into the combined bags you sent (about 0.5 gallons) over more
than an hour. During this time, the crabs were very active, and the
Nassarius snails had their breathing tubes flailing around. The Margarita
snails were stuck to the bag when I opened it so I gently removed them.
Could I have hurt them then? In the future, I could cut the bag and put the
bag with snails in for acclimation (removing the bag once they detach)?
Anyway, after acclimation and having replaced the one gallon with newly made
up water (I have a stir plate, stir bar, and air stone running to make it),
I put the snails and crabs into the tank. The Nassarius snails stuck their
feet out and kind of flailed like in agony and fell onto their backs. The
Margarita snails and Cerith snails stayed tightly sealed in their shells (I
never saw the Cerith snails' feet out of the shell). By morning, none of
the snails had moved. The Margaritas and Ceriths were still shut. The
Nassarius were upside down with their feet out. I picked them up and
touched them and go no response. They are definitely dead....The very active dwarf zebra hermit crabs later
worked on eating the Nassarius snails (which is good that they served some
purpose). Having giving you some back ground, here is my question. The man
told me this morning that the reason the snails died was too low a
salinity. I told him 1.022 specific gravity but after I hung up, I tested,
it was actually 1.023. I thought that was good as the Instant Ocean and
hydrometers say to have 1.020 to 1.024 so I averaged that to 1.202. The man
said it should be 1.023 minimum and up to 1.025. Is that correct? I
brought it up to 1.024. Could salinity alone have killed the snails so fast
or was it just the changes in water parameters. I've never lost any
freshwater animals instantly like that. Would a longer acclimation work?
If I can't keep snails alive, there's no way I could keep fish or corals
alive in the future. Or, are marine snails hard to keep alive (versus
freshwater snails who are often nearly immortal)? I plan to wait a few
weeks. If the water quality is good, and the hermits are doing well (they
seem really happy), I might try more snails and/or fish (two Ocellaris
clowns) but I'm worried. The tank was set up two weekends ago with 8 pounds
of live sand and 11.5 pounds of live rock. There are lots of diatoms
growing now. The hermit crabs seem to prefer being on the bottom and not
the live rock....
I last did 100% tests on the tank Saturday before changing out 2.5 gallons.
Here were the results.

SG - 1.0243 (before the water change with 1.022 SG water which brought it
down)
pH 7.8 (before water change with pH 8.0 water; I've ordered buffer; could
the lower pH have harmed the snails?)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Alkalinity 200 ppm CaCO3 (low, a factor?)
Calcium 285 ppm (low)

I was told NOT to add any supplements by multiple "experts," that the
Instant Ocean alone would be enough. My well water is very soft so that's
why the pH, alkalinity, hardness, etc. are low. What should I add, if
anything? Were those factors in the snails' demise or was it really the
salinity or something else?

My Instant Ocean hydrometer reads almost 1.024 now but the Red Sea (in tank)
hydrometer which sways from the current ranges from 1.021 to 1.024 but it's
within the black range. I assume the Instant Ocean hydrometer is more
accurate? When I fill it up, I stick a long pair of small scissors into it
and slam the dewhickey into the side to get rid of the bubbles which I
figured out I had to do. Could I be reading the hydrometers wrong? Do I
really need a refractometer? Why is this so hard?! Now, I now why I've
always been afraid to have saltwater despite being a chemist (strange, the word filter tripped on the type of chemist I am!)!...I've never cried over snails before! Thanks."

I am afraid to get more snails or other animals. I feel pretty stupid and bad for murdering the 7 I bought. Suggestions aside from give up?

 

[AlexfromSATX]

Sorry to hear about the snails. I would wait about a week before adding anything. When I first started out I was using a Hydrometer as well, but it kept giving me wacky reading. When I finally got it working it was telling me that I was 1.024 and I thought I was ok but my stuff was not looking good. I borrowed a friends Refractometer only to find out that I was ACTUALLY at 1.019!!!! Some people use a Hydrometer with no issuea, but after that expierience I just shelled out the $40 to get a refractometer. Although you must make sure you calibrate it every so often. Another solution may be to take your water to an LFS and see if they can test your Salinity, just to double check it for you. Do you have pics of your set-up?

 

[Fishy]

Thanks Alex. I will probably get that refractometer with my next order. I run complicated equipment at work, some worth $200,000. I think I can handle a refractometer. How long does it take to do a test with it?

Here is a link to a photo of my tank after I put in the live rock two Sundays ago. There are four pieces of live rock.

Entire tank:
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/fish/tanks/reef3.jpg

Close up of neat big dead clam that is on one of the live rocks:
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/fish/tanks/reef4.jpg

There's no way I can get a decent photo of my new crabbies. Number one, they're so tiny, the camera just won't focus. Number two, those dwarf zebra hermit crabs never sit still! They also like to play musical shells. I finally got some seaweed today and will put a little piece in tomorrow. I've been giving them sinking shrimp pellets (just one a day) so far which they liked. They've eaten some diatoms but not a lot.

I got some Microbe Lift pH buffer today. It's mostly sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3, baking soda) like someone suggested but also has sodium carbonate and some other buffers. I add straight baking soda to my pond to buffer it some but was afraid to do so with this tiny tank. I will adjust my weekly 2.5 gallons of water for the water change with that stuff. If I can get the new water to be ideal, and then change 2.5 gallons out weekly, it will eventually get where I want it. Once I figure out the weight (I do have a scale) of additives, I hope the whole process won't take so long. I don't want to stress the crabbies with any fast changes. I will not add any more animals until I can get the pH stable at least to pH 8.0 and also have the salinity at 1.024 or 1.025 and also be sure it's still zero ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

I have an Instant Ocean Ocean Masters test kit. It takes like an hour to do all the tests (some have waiting periods). Do you guys spend lots of time with your test kits or is there a better option or test kit? I know they're not ideal but I thought I could use the dip stick tests at least when trying to ball park the make-up water and then do a final "good" test with the longer test kit.

Someone mentioned using RO or distilled water. Our well water is very soft and has very little in it. My freshwater animals have always done very well. I ran our water on an ICP-MS machine; there was less lead and other heavy metals in our water than in Perrier and other bottled waters. The water at work had some 1000 times the metal content. A reef "expert" told me that all I would ever need to add to the water (if RO or distilled) would be the salt mix. If my well water is too low in pH and alkalinity, it would be even worse with pure water so I don't get that.

I got off on a bad foot with this forum at first but I can see there are some nice people here.

 

[AlexfromSATX]

Nice setup! Looks very nice. Going to look real good once you can start adding corals. Looks like you have a lot of areas to glue stuff. The refractometer takes about 25 seconds to test. Put a drop of water on the glass, close the top, look into the viewing area to see the measurement, and done. As far as the testing for PH and Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia does take a while. I usually test every 2 weeks ( I know I should probably test more often). But when I first started it was everyday, and only takes about 15 - 20 minutes. I use the AQUARIUM PHARMACEUTICALS Brand Test kit. Not the best but it does the job for me.

 

[TimSchmidt]

I don't know about the chemistry involved but I've always heard that RO/DI is the best water to use, then RO because the water is not soft nor hard just dead in the middle. I like the dead clam! I personally just got a refractometer from ebay and it literally takes 2 seconds to test the water. Take the dropper and put water on the glass part and then look into it and read the preprinted chart inside. That's it.

 

[Fishy]

I ordered a refractometer and also a salt mix that says it's for RO water OR very soft water which is what I have. If I test my tap water, I can't even test the hardness or alkalinity because it won't register it's so low. I'm hoping that new salt mix (says gives 450 ppm Ca and my well water has zero and good pH and alkalinity) will help.

Yep, I saw that dead clam and couldn't resist! It should make a nice hiding place for some future fish. I lucked out with my three big pieces of live rock. They fit perfectly together giving a flat top to stick on future corals and also a nice cave region for the future fish.

My new crabs are just the cutest little things. One of the zebras changed his shell today for the fourth time or something. The site I got them from says they're herbivores but they ate the dead snails and shrimp pellets and ignored most of the diatoms and new seaweed. While the zebras are zipping around non-stop (remind me of kittens getting into trouble), the other three species are pretty slow and quiet.

 

[KoNP]

Just a guess dude, but maybe fluid displacement is playing a part here? It's a 12-gallon, sure, but that's only if there's nothing else in there. The more solid things you put in there (sand, rocks, even the fish) the less space there is going to be for the water.

 

[Fishy]

Ok, Dude. I measured the volume with nothing in it. I'm an ana*ytical chemist and measure things for a living.

 

[KoNP]

Ok, Dude. I measured the volume with nothing in it. I'm an ana*ytical chemist and measure things for a living.

It was just a suggestion, no need to get defensive... You didn't make it terribly clear one way or the other if you measure it with contents or without, so I had to make the assumption you did it with contents as it would be a perfect explanation.

If the tank says 12 but you measure 7 then either:

The tank is a 12 gallon and you measured incorrectly for whatever reason.
OR
The tank is a 7 gallon and it has the incorrect volume written on it.

Whether you're a chemist or not doesn't change the reality of the situation. And at the end of the day, what can you really do about it?